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Old August 5th, 2014, 08:31 PM   #2701
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After the Gotthard base tunnel is put in operation, and a twin bore is already there, though operating in one-lane configuration, it would be feasible to put a proposition on referendum to open a second lane on each direction with cap on truck traffic as it is, wouldn't it?
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Old August 5th, 2014, 09:00 PM   #2702
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisZwolle View Post
The most severe congestion is at days and times when truck traffic is banned anyway.
Increasing the vehicle limit at least on Sundays (today set at 1.000 per hour per direction, 1 truck = 3 vehicles), together with more smart drivers, would decrease congestion much before than a full second tube.

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with cap on truck traffic as it is
There is already a law limiting trucks, but the government doesn't want to respect it. It should have been applied in 2004.
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Old August 5th, 2014, 10:14 PM   #2703
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Where are the trucks gonna go? Brenner and Mont Blanc?
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Old August 6th, 2014, 01:32 AM   #2704
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why they want trucks to not exist and instead pass trains? Trains suck balls frankly (ever try to get things shipped via train?! Ain't nobody got no time for that)
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Old August 6th, 2014, 02:11 AM   #2705
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They will price transit traffic off the roads is how...once the base tunnels are built.

If you want to send a container across Switzerland after 2020 prepare to use rail freight.

While I have not seen any designs for the freight yards at either end in Germany and Italy I would think they will be rather massive and that the trains will run as shuttles, setting off as soon as they are loaded and travelling at speeds that no truck can reach on the roads that are there today. I don't think there will be any net time penalty between Stuttgart and Milan for using rail so I don't.

Austria and Switzerland are spending somewhere over €30bn on north-south base tunnels in the period 2005-2025 and breakeven on that investment including running costs would be around €3bn a year in transit charges. The Italians and French are looking at another €10bn worth of base tunnel on the Lyons Turin route as well.
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Old August 7th, 2014, 05:03 PM   #2706
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rower2000 View Post
I think the reduced NOx emissions because of the reduction of congestion will have a higher effect than the induced traffic because of the capacity increase. My car uses about 40 to 50% more fuel in congested traffic than in free-flow at 100 to 120 kph. Traffic induction on days without congestion will be negligible as on those days the travel time is not changed. I strongly doubt that the induced traffic on the highly affected days will exceed 10%.
Again, technical improvement will solve that problem in the next decade. Start stop automatic will become the norm. Hybrids even solve the problem of stop and go traffic.
Quote:
And for the "the constitution was amended - period - end of discussion" argument: this amendment can just as well be repealed by another referendum. I think there is a good chance that in a new referendum - and such a referendum will come in the next decade, I'm pretty sure about that - a twinning of the Gotthard tunnel will be approved.
We will see, the last vote about a second tube (Avanti) was lost not that long ago.
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Old August 12th, 2014, 07:26 PM   #2707
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The A1/2 concurrency between Härkingen and Wiggertal interchanges will feature 2x3 lanes by this month. It was a 2.5 year project to widen this stretch of A1/2.

http://www.handelszeitung.ch/politik...-der-a1-652475

The next phase is planned from Luterbach to Härkingen, a widening to 2x3 lanes between 2022 and 2030.

Too bad this widening would last 8 years. That is way too long for a simple widening of one lane each way. The Netherlands did a similar widening project (A12) in just 18 months.
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Old August 13th, 2014, 02:23 AM   #2708
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisZwolle View Post
The A1/2 concurrency between Härkingen and Wiggertal interchanges will feature 2x3 lanes by this month.

Too bad this widening would last 8 years. That is way too long for a simple widening of one lane each way. The Netherlands did a similar widening project (A12) in just 18 months.

True! Having said that, if this is the price to pay for having a direct democracy, I can live with it. BTW, I for one do not want the Gotthard to be doubled. Why? Because as long as there are 10km queues there, it means there's going to be less congestion along the rest of the A2.
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Old August 13th, 2014, 09:44 AM   #2709
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Because as long as there are 10km queues there, it means there's going to be less congestion along the rest of the A2.
I don't really think it works that way...
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Old August 13th, 2014, 10:37 AM   #2710
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The Chiasso border crossing is a good example that shows that congestion at the Gotthard does not solve congestion further down the road, in fact it exacerbates congestion at the San Bernardino as well, because people take a 100 km detour (very good for the environment by the way).

The peak holiday traffic volume at the Gotthard is around 40.000 vehicles per day. A four-lane motorway can handle that traffic without any problems.

But with or without a second Gotthard tube, the situation at Chiasso must be improved. I've driven there only 3 or 4 times, but I've read they often have only one or two lanes open.
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Old August 13th, 2014, 10:47 AM   #2711
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisZwolle View Post
But with or without a second Gotthard tube, the situation at Chiasso must be improved. I've driven there only 3 or 4 times, but I've read they often have only one or two lanes open.
That is mainly due to the Italians though and not to the Swiss.
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Old August 13th, 2014, 12:04 PM   #2712
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If there is a queue going into Swiss I normally come off at Como and go through town and take a little border crossing with Chiasso there...
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Old August 13th, 2014, 12:07 PM   #2713
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Quote:
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That is mainly due to the Italians though and not to the Swiss.
Ready to point fingers, huh?
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Old August 13th, 2014, 12:14 PM   #2714
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Actually it's true. When coming from Milan the empty lorries goes through with the rest of the tourist traffic but come off at a different lane, where they have to wait for Italian officers as they want to look in the back. I have to go through there in my van as well. So there is this STOP sign and you wait and wait and wait as the Italians take their time even showing up, causing delays for all traffic on the motorway.

I never cross that border when I'm loaded. I always use Mont Blanc or Brenner, apart from that one time I ended up in Swiss loaded by accident...
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Old August 13th, 2014, 12:17 PM   #2715
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I know it's true... but that wasn't really the point of the discussion.
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Old August 14th, 2014, 11:12 PM   #2716
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Quote:
Originally Posted by g.spinoza View Post
I don't really think it works that way...
There are actually simulations that show that Luzern would get huge jams from a Gotthard doubling. It's pretty obvious that the traffic would rise if a second tube was opened. The part of the A2 at Luzern is congested already.

The same happened when the Baregg was widened, the traffic jam moved immediately to the Gubrist.
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Old August 15th, 2014, 09:59 AM   #2717
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There are actually simulations that show that Luzern would get huge jams from a Gotthard doubling. It's pretty obvious that the traffic would rise if a second tube was opened. The part of the A2 at Luzern is congested already.

The same happened when the Baregg was widened, the traffic jam moved immediately to the Gubrist.
Some relief is better than no relief. Of course, with any improvement, a new equilibrium will be established. As traffic increases, there will eventually be a bottleneck somewhere.
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Old August 15th, 2014, 10:38 AM   #2718
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The part of the A2 at Luzern is congested already.
If the A2 at Luzern is already congested it should be upgraded anyway. If the Gotthard tunnel would be doubled one day, there should be no problem at Luzern.
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Old August 15th, 2014, 11:27 AM   #2719
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An alternative to upgrading the A2 at Lucerne would be providing a better (and more direct) route between the Gotthard Road Tunnel and Zurich east of Lake Lucerne in order to bypass Lucerne.
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Old August 15th, 2014, 01:16 PM   #2720
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An alternative to upgrading the A2 at Lucerne would be providing a better (and more direct) route between the Gotthard Road Tunnel and Zurich east of Lake Lucerne in order to bypass Lucerne.
But if I look at traffic volumes on the A4 between Zug and Zurich there is not that much traffic even on peak Gotthard days. I think most Gotthard traffic is heading for Basel and not for Zurich so expanding the route east of Lake Lucerne might not bring much relief for the A2.
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