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Old December 11th, 2008, 04:16 PM   #261
ChrisZwolle
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A second tube would probably better in terms of emissions due to idling traffic at both ends of the tunnel. However, I think it will attract some more traffic. I don't think the Gotthard plays any importance in commuting, due to the lack of jobcenters nearby and the cultural divide that the tunnel is. (Italian speaking CH vs German speaking CH).

So generally, only long-distance traffic is expected. What are the current alternatives? Not really that much, the pass is probably mostly for scenic driving and not in use as an alternative outside the summer peaks. Another alternative is the San Bernardino but I think the effect would be pretty minimal due to the distance and the fact that there's a gap near Zürich (which will be completed). In terms of Brenner pass/Simplon/Mt. Blanc, then were talking about very long distance traffic, mostly trucks and some summer traffic. I think that amount is pretty minimal, remember the current AADT of the Gotthard is about 20.000 vehicles/day, which extremely low for such an important connection.

So who would benefit the most from a second tube? Traffic safety is an important factor, but also the summer peaks which could result in waiting times of 2 - 3 hours. I believe the lines outside the summer seasons are pretty minimal.
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Old December 12th, 2008, 10:30 AM   #262
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Let's face it, the seconds tube is only needed for very few days when holydays starts. During the rest of the year.
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Old December 12th, 2008, 10:59 AM   #263
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Safety is a year-round issue.
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Old December 12th, 2008, 11:13 AM   #264
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Second tube -> more traffic. More traffic -> more accidents.
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Old December 12th, 2008, 11:18 AM   #265
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Not necessarily. More traffic would be evident, but how much more? And wouldn't more traffic occur anyway? 2x2 motorways are far safer than one lane highways, despite higher traffic levels. So even with more traffic, the number of traffic accidents would be far less.
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Old December 12th, 2008, 11:19 AM   #266
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Quote:
Originally Posted by earthJoker View Post
Second tube -> more traffic. More traffic -> more accidents.


That would mean, that normal roads are safer than autobahns.
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Old December 12th, 2008, 12:36 PM   #267
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Quote:
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Second tube -> more traffic. More traffic -> more accidents.
yeah. lets ban all traffic.

No traffic -> No accident.

its that simple, isnt it?
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Old December 12th, 2008, 12:40 PM   #268
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Let's face it, the seconds tube is only needed for very few days when holydays starts. During the rest of the year.
yeah... stupid croatians dont know this...

they are throwing out enormous amount money on second tube projects of mala kapela and sveti rok.
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Old December 12th, 2008, 03:08 PM   #269
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Not necessarily. More traffic would be evident, but how much more? And wouldn't more traffic occur anyway?
No, there are quite enought studies that show a increase of traffic after capacity enhancement, in general and for this case. In case of the Gotthard the Achsenstrasse and the Highway throught Lucerne would reach their limits. In fact the traffic jam would be just at another place. We had the same effect after the opening of the third Baregg tube, now the traffic jam moved to the Limmattaler-Kreuz and the Gubrist tunnel.
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2x2 motorways are far safer than one lane highways, despite higher traffic levels. So even with more traffic, the number of traffic accidents would be far less.
On the tunnel yes, but the whole route will have more traffic, there was just an accident on the Achsenstrasse. So this street would need a 2x2 as well.

There is also a problem with 2x2 tunnels if an accident happen people are stuck, in the Gotthard tunnel the cars just turn and drive back on the opposite lane.

Quote:
they are throwing out enormous amount money on second tube projects of mala kapela and sveti rok
How long are those tunnels?
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Old December 12th, 2008, 04:13 PM   #270
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Those tunnels in Croatia are almost 6 km long each.

Quote:
On the tunnel yes, but the whole route will have more traffic, there was just an accident on the Achsenstrasse. So this street would need a 2x2 as well.

There is also a problem with 2x2 tunnels if an accident happen people are stuck, in the Gotthard tunnel the cars just turn and drive back on the opposite lane.
Those arguments are weak.
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Old December 13th, 2008, 11:39 AM   #271
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It is rather obvious that a second tube could and probably will generate more traffic. That is not particularly environmentally friendly.
this argument is weak in my opinion because people that are avoiding now gotthard tunnel use longer routes to bypass it so they generate more co2 emissions.a second tube will help a lot in reducing pollution because people won't be stuck in traffic jams there and they won't have to take longer routes.
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Old December 14th, 2008, 07:35 PM   #272
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Those tunnels in Croatia are almost 6 km long each.
The Gotthard tunnel is 16.9 km!

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this argument is weak in my opinion because people that are avoiding now gotthard tunnel use longer routes to bypass it so they generate more co2 emissions.a second tube will help a lot in reducing pollution because people won't be stuck in traffic jams there and they won't have to take longer routes.
Many people are using the train at the moment for the Gotthard route, these would switch to the road once a second tube would be opened. This also is against the Swiss constitution, where a reduction of the road traffic on the trans alpine route is written down.
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Old December 14th, 2008, 07:38 PM   #273
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The Gotthard tunnel is 16.9 km!
And the Gotthard railway tunnel is 57 km.
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Old December 14th, 2008, 08:31 PM   #274
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Our longest tunnel is 6,6 km long (Westerscheldetunnel). And we don't even have mountains
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Old December 15th, 2008, 04:59 PM   #275
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Quote:
Originally Posted by panda80 View Post
this argument is weak in my opinion because people that are avoiding now gotthard tunnel use longer routes to bypass it so they generate more co2 emissions.a second tube will help a lot in reducing pollution because people won't be stuck in traffic jams there and they won't have to take longer routes.
The argument is more than valid to the Swiss, at least, since that's why they haven't been very interested in a second tube, in spite of an AADT of 20,000. Remember, the EU wants twin tubes for 1 km+ tunnels with an AADT of more than 10,000 - for safety reasons. I think the Swiss are more than able to consider this as well. And yet...
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Old December 15th, 2008, 05:29 PM   #276
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Quote:
Originally Posted by earthJoker View Post
There is also a problem with 2x2 tunnels if an accident happen people are stuck, in the Gotthard tunnel the cars just turn and drive back on the opposite lane.
You have to take into account that there is lower probability that accident will happen on 2x2. Also when accident happen on 2x2, one direction is not closed because of it.
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Old December 16th, 2008, 04:43 PM   #277
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Can somebody post me a picture from Speed Limits in Switzerland? Thanks
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Old December 17th, 2008, 06:13 PM   #278
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That's another option, but the tunnel is very expensive, whereas the pass is very long and slow.

Really? I thought it was open all the time.

I'm talking about the expressway SS33 between Domodossola and the A26 motorway. Actually it's not expressway and the speed limit is just 90 km/h (rightfully!), but it's 4-laned. It's also been some four years since I last drove there, but the pavement was absolutely awful. You couldn't drive more than 100 km/h. But the A26 motorway was fine.
What's the problem with the SS33 expressway ? It's fine :





The SS33 is a 2x2 expressway between A26 and Domodossola, then a 2x1 expressway (grad-separated and fully access-controlled) between Domodossola and the North of Varzo. Since the opening of the bypass of Varzo, you don't leave the expressway between the A26 and the station of the shuttle through the Simplon tunnel.

This axis very interesting compared to the Grand-St-Bernard : with the shuttle you don't leave the plain for about the same price of the Grand-St-Bernard tunnel. Furthermore is the A26 tollfree until Arona and the SS33 obviously too. Here are some pics of the A26 near the Major Lake :





See also :

Pics of SS33 and A26
Pics of A26
Pics of the bypass of Varzo during the works
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Old December 17th, 2008, 06:33 PM   #279
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Has the SS33 been rehabilitated? I also remember it having bumps and potholes.
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Old December 17th, 2008, 06:42 PM   #280
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When did you take the road ? These photos are from 2005/2006. Perhaps the road was rehabilitated short before...
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