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Old August 31st, 2014, 09:14 AM   #2781
pccvspw999
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Quote:
Originally Posted by John Maynard View Post
Note also that petrol in Italy is more expensive by ~30 percent than in Switzerland!
But not Diesel oil, which is expensier.
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Old August 31st, 2014, 02:08 PM   #2782
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An increase from 40SF to 100SF was just rejected by the population in a referendum, a couple of month ago. Nobody will attempt to introduce any road-pricing for years to come.
It's useless to dispute about something (tunnel toll) that unlikely will happen.
To introduce a toll on a national highway, which Gotthard tunnel is part of, would probably start with a referendum, as it is a modification to the Swiss constitution who mention that roads are free, but with few exception, like the vignette (already accepted by a referendum in the past, against the recommendation of the government) and the Gd-St-Bernard tunnel.
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Old August 31st, 2014, 02:12 PM   #2783
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But not Diesel oil, which is expensier.
Nope, Diesel too is more expensive by ~16% in Italy than in Switzerland:
http://www.fuel-prices-europe.info/
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Old September 1st, 2014, 11:49 AM   #2784
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Are Swiss planning a short motorway between Mendrisio (A2) and the Italian border at Stabio\Gaggiolo? The Italian A60 will soon connect Varese with this border crossing.
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“The transponder’s personalised signal would be picked up when the car passed through an intersection, and then relayed to a central computer which would calculate the charge according to the intersection and the time of day and add it to the car’s bill” - Nobel Economics Prize winner William Vickrey, proposing a system of electronic tolling for the Washington metropolitan area, 1959
In real life, electronic toll collection was first introduced in Bergen, Norway in 1986, and well into the 21th century many countries still struggle to implement it.
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Old September 1st, 2014, 08:50 PM   #2785
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It is planned since decades (as 1+1), but never built because of cost, opposition, and Swiss slowness. Had the Swiss accepted the 100 CHF vignette, the road between A2 and the border would have been handed over to the federal government, as the price increase was refused the road will remain owned by Canton Ticino which doesn't have money to build it. Now we must wait the new road fund, which may include in the future take care of this and other roads which were to be transferred to the federal government.

By the way, the A60 will not reach the border for the time being, but will end here: https://maps.google.ch/?ll=45.802231...04823&t=m&z=18
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Old September 1st, 2014, 09:56 PM   #2786
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Is this new road fund coming, without any compromise, on the rise of fuel taxes?
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Old September 1st, 2014, 10:37 PM   #2787
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The federal government wants to increase fuel taxes by 12 to 15 cents/litre, among other things. A referendum will be held on that fund around 2016. If it is rejected, then everything will start from the beginning, delaying all by years. Note that ASTAG, TCS and the other road association oppsoe it (because of the fuel price increase).

More infos there: http://www.astra.admin.ch/themen/060...x.html?lang=it
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Old September 1st, 2014, 11:02 PM   #2788
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The federal government wants to increase fuel taxes by 12 to 15 cents/litre, among other things. A referendum will be held on that fund around 2016. If it is rejected, then everything will start from the beginning, delaying all by years. Note that ASTAG, TCS and the other road association oppsoe it (because of the fuel price increase).

More infos there: http://www.astra.admin.ch/themen/060...x.html?lang=it
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Old September 1st, 2014, 11:15 PM   #2789
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Coccodrillo View Post
It is planned since decades (as 1+1), but never built because of cost, opposition, and Swiss slowness. Had the Swiss accepted the 100 CHF vignette, the road between A2 and the border would have been handed over to the federal government, as the price increase was refused the road will remain owned by Canton Ticino which doesn't have money to build it. Now we must wait the new road fund, which may include in the future take care of this and other roads which were to be transferred to the federal government.

By the way, the A60 will not reach the border for the time being, but will end here: https://maps.google.ch/?ll=45.802231...04823&t=m&z=18
Aparently A60 will reach the border:
http://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=16/45.8381/8.9100
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“The transponder’s personalised signal would be picked up when the car passed through an intersection, and then relayed to a central computer which would calculate the charge according to the intersection and the time of day and add it to the car’s bill” - Nobel Economics Prize winner William Vickrey, proposing a system of electronic tolling for the Washington metropolitan area, 1959
In real life, electronic toll collection was first introduced in Bergen, Norway in 1986, and well into the 21th century many countries still struggle to implement it.
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Old September 1st, 2014, 11:22 PM   #2790
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As far I know, this second part has been postponed because the Swiss section has been postponed, too.
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Old September 1st, 2014, 11:54 PM   #2791
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Coccodrillo View Post
The federal government wants to increase fuel taxes by 12 to 15 cents/litre, among other things. A referendum will be held on that fund around 2016. If it is rejected, then everything will start from the beginning, delaying all by years. Note that ASTAG, TCS and the other road association oppsoe it (because of the fuel price increase).

More infos there: http://www.astra.admin.ch/themen/060...x.html?lang=it
Thank you for the link.

Apparently, I think it would be better, at least for the second Gotthard tunnel, to create an electronic toll, as proposed some years ago, instead of rising fuel prices for everyone! This tolling may be modest, per example 10-15 CHF, and in one-way only. IMHO, the actual taxes and surtaxes are amply sufficient for the other major national highways projects.

Why everytime that the Federal Council is proposing some major road projects it must be rendered unattractive for the majority (in contradiction with the railways projects), like 10 years ago with "Avanti"?
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Old September 2nd, 2014, 12:15 AM   #2792
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Originally Posted by Coccodrillo View Post
As far I know, this second part has been postponed because the Swiss section has been postponed, too.
http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showpo...14&postcount=1
Here they says that is U/C till Cantello, 2km before Gaggiolo border crossing.
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“The transponder’s personalised signal would be picked up when the car passed through an intersection, and then relayed to a central computer which would calculate the charge according to the intersection and the time of day and add it to the car’s bill” - Nobel Economics Prize winner William Vickrey, proposing a system of electronic tolling for the Washington metropolitan area, 1959
In real life, electronic toll collection was first introduced in Bergen, Norway in 1986, and well into the 21th century many countries still struggle to implement it.
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Old September 2nd, 2014, 12:46 AM   #2793
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Coccodrillo View Post
By the way, the A60 will not reach the border for the time being, but will end here: https://maps.google.ch/?ll=45.802231...04823&t=m&z=18
This is actually where it currently ends, it's also where it will end for quite some time, the section to Gaggiolo (Swiss border) exists only on paper, don't expect it to be built any time soon, no matter what happens on the other side of the border.



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Old September 2nd, 2014, 12:49 AM   #2794
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Quote:
Originally Posted by italystf View Post
http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showpo...14&postcount=1
Here they says that is U/C till Cantello, 2km before Gaggiolo border crossing.

This is false, no construction going on whatsoever. This is just a project, nothing else at the moment.


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Old September 3rd, 2014, 02:26 PM   #2795
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About the tax on mineral oils (fuel tax), its revenues were allocated 75% for road; now it's only 50 %.
When this change occurred? Moreover, I can't remember of a votation about it.
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Old September 3rd, 2014, 08:29 PM   #2796
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Originally Posted by John Maynard View Post
Apparently, I think it would be better, at least for the second Gotthard tunnel, to create an electronic toll, as proposed some years ago, instead of rising fuel prices for everyone! This tolling may be modest, per example 10-15 CHF, and in one-way only. IMHO, the actual taxes and surtaxes are amply sufficient for the other major national highways projects.
A toll on national roads is forbidden by law. Only a few roads are tolled, in particular the Great St Bernard and the Munt La Schera tunnels. Beside that, tolling the main road linking a canton with the others, but no any other main road, is politically unacceptable. Anyway, many citizens would (and will) refuse it anyway.

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Originally Posted by John Maynard View Post
Why everytime that the Federal Council is proposing some major road projects it must be rendered unattractive for the majority (in contradiction with the railways projects), like 10 years ago with "Avanti"?
In the case of the fuel tax, because roads cost money.
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Old September 3rd, 2014, 09:20 PM   #2797
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Originally Posted by Coccodrillo View Post
A toll on national roads is forbidden by law. Only a few roads are tolled, in particular the Great St Bernard and the Munt La Schera tunnels. Beside that, tolling the main road linking a canton with the others, but no any other main road, is politically unacceptable. Anyway, many citizens would (and will) refuse it anyway.
It could be introduced for foreign plates only - like Germans are going to introduce in 2016 for their Autobahns - as the traffic jams are caused by North-South transit traffic. Nothing forbids to present an initiative (parliamentary or referendum) to ask this.

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In the case of the fuel tax, because roads cost money.
Yes, but not all the money paid by motorists is used for this purpose.
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Old September 3rd, 2014, 09:52 PM   #2798
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Swiss national road network (in green), as planned.

Last edited by John Maynard; September 3rd, 2014 at 10:05 PM.
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Old September 3rd, 2014, 10:02 PM   #2799
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Today, the Federal Council (FC) has rejected the initiative "for equitable transportation funding", also called the "cow milk initiative". This initiative has stipulated that motorists taxpayer's money should be used for road transports, and that all new taxes concerning the road shall be approved by the People.
News (in French): http://www.letemps.ch/Page/Uuid/ed6d..._contre-projet

The FC has thrown to the rubbish this initiative, which has collected more than 114 thousands signatures, without proposing any counter-project instead.
The argument for rejection was that it was "too radical".

I believe, that if this initiative had gone further, it would have made a giant leap forward to all road projects. Now, we remain with the status-quo, and as consolation, the new road fund proposed by the FC is likely going to be buried.

As a matter of fact, It's a nice show of respect to the direct democracy that the federal government has provided today

Here is the caricature of the initiative:


Now, at least it is well described what we are, but also the European motorist in general.
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Old September 3rd, 2014, 10:15 PM   #2800
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It could be introduced for foreign plates only
No way, it would be discriminatory versus foreign drivers, and thus certainly forbidden by some bilateral agreement with the EU.

Quote:
Originally Posted by John Maynard View Post
Yes, but not all the money paid by motorists is used for this purpose.
There arent only roads in life, if you give all road taxes to roads, then other sources of money (read: other kinds taxes) should be found for other public expenditures (health care, schools, etc), unless they are aboloshed (which would not be wise).

The "milk cow" initiative, if accepted, would just mean more taxes on other things, not more money for roads with the same level of taxation.

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Originally Posted by John Maynard View Post
As a matter of fact, It's a nice show of respect to the direct democracy that the federal government has provided today
Apparently you don't know how our country works...the federal council has just said that he does not support the initiative and suggest to refuse it. It cannot reject.

When an initative collects enough signatures, then citizens will vote on it. It will be the same for this one.

The government may decide to offer a counter-project, in which case voters are able to choose between the initiative or the government's proposal (or to refuse both). But it may also decide not to offer a counter-project, in this case citizens can only choose if to approve the initiative or if to refuse it.
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