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Old January 11th, 2015, 03:54 PM   #2881
Sunfuns
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I hope this gets rejected again. By the way if it's approved by local voters does it mean that the city has to pay for it? That's a lot of money even for Geneva.
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Old January 11th, 2015, 04:26 PM   #2882
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Here what does the initiative say:

Quote:
Article unique
La Constitution de la République et canton de Genève, du 14 octobre 2012, est modifiée comme suit*:

Art. 192A Traversée du Lac (nouveau)
1* Pour lutter contre l’engorgement des voies de communication, renforcer la prospérité de la région et améliorer la qualité de vie, le canton réalise une Traversée du Lac permettant l’achèvement du contournement de Genève.
2* Afin d’accélérer sa réalisation, un partenariat avec le secteur privé est envisagé parallèlement au mode de financement prévu par la Confédération.
3* L’Etat prend des mesures d’accompagnement. En particulier, il s’appuie sur la Traversée du Lac pour aménager les rives avec les communes concernées, réduire les nuisances dans les zones urbanisées, renforcer l’efficacité des transports publics, favoriser la mobilité douce et créer de nouveaux espaces publics.
It says that the Canton will built a new road connection across the lake (it doesn't specify if a tunnel, a bridge or whatever), that a public-private partnership must be evaluated together with federal financing, and that it will work on urban renewal too (public transport, slow mobility, new public spaces, ...).

It doesn't propose any real financing method, nor a deadline, so it is more a symbolic vote than a real decision to build (or not to build) a cross-lake road.

The initiative might be accepted and the road not built soon, or viceversa.

A map of the hypothetical path can be seen here: http://www.tdg.ch/geneve/actu-genevo...story/20470464
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Old January 11th, 2015, 06:35 PM   #2883
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Was it really necessary to amend the constitution of the Canton to build a freaking bridge?
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Old January 11th, 2015, 06:37 PM   #2884
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Quote:
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Was it really necessary to amend the constitution of the Canton to build a freaking bridge?
Isn't that how Swiss direct-democracy works? Any referedum goes in the Constituion as to be binding on the parliament.
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Old January 11th, 2015, 07:35 PM   #2885
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Popular initiatives always propose an amendment to the costitutions (cantonal or federal). Proposed articles are written in the relevant constitution as they are, without modifications, then the government create or alter the various law to regulate and explain the details. But these laws are written by politicians, they aren't directly voted with the initiative. Then, a referendum may be asked against these laws (or against any law decided by the parliament) gathering enough signatures.
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Old January 11th, 2015, 07:44 PM   #2886
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I always thought Constitutions were to have only fundamental principles, not every petty decision about specific things... but I guess every country has its own ways...

Last edited by g.spinoza; January 11th, 2015 at 08:13 PM.
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Old January 11th, 2015, 07:58 PM   #2887
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To alter federal and cantonal constitutions a referendum is mandatory, for other laws it is not. So writing a principle in the constitutions means that politicians are obliged to organize a vote if they want to alter it (although they not necessarily respect what citizens approve, like this famous road example approved 20 years ago but still not respected).

(anyway, citizens cannot ask for a separate specific new law, they can "only" ask for a new constitutional article or ask to refuse a new law recently approved by the parliament)
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Old January 15th, 2015, 12:15 PM   #2888
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Coccodrillo View Post
although they not necessarily respect what citizens approve, like this famous road example approved 20 years ago but still not respected
What exactely is not respected in art. 84?
For what I see, already a lot is done to "protect the Alpine region from the negative effects of transit traffic", by directing it in usually faster, flow free, avoiding villages and towns, as well as fragile ecological areas, animals and plants, having many tunnels, A2 motorway.
Transalpine goods traffic is already transported by rail, and an Alpine transit tax for trucks that use the roads has been introduced more than a decade ago, along with heavy promotion of the "rolling highway". And what about the new 59 kilometers Gothard Railway Tunnel, that was built mostly because of this initiative. We must wait until its opening to see further transition from road to rail.
The capacity of the transit routes in the Alpine region was not increased since the law entered in force.
What else could be done, completely forbidden transit trucks from roads?
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Old January 17th, 2015, 05:07 AM   #2889
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Semi-off topic question: what happens is an unworkable constitutional amended is passed by ballot in CH, for instance, one requiring all planes to emit noise below 90dB on takeoff at 100m distance from any point on a runway?
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Old January 17th, 2015, 11:09 AM   #2890
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Initiatives against basic human rights (never proposed until now...) are automatically rejected.

I don't know what should legally happen if an accepted initiative proposes something impossible, but it likely happens the same as something not liked by the government is accepted: the government doesn't respect it (like the truck ban on the Alps I cited above).

(NB: in Switzerland, initiative = some citizens propose something finding enough signatures and everybody vote about that, referendum = the government propose something, then some citizens find enough signatures and everybody vote about that)
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Old January 17th, 2015, 07:17 PM   #2891
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Coccodrillo View Post
I don't know what should legally happen if an accepted initiative proposes something impossible, but it likely happens the same as something not liked by the government is accepted: the government doesn't respect it (like the truck ban on the Alps I cited above).
For a complete truck ban on major international European North-South axis, there should be a coherent an adequate infrastructure for an alternative form of transportation, as the "rolling highway" piggyback.
Actually, the North-South railway line (old Gotthard line) is a major railroad axis for passengers and freight, both used for regional, intercity, and international traffic.
I cannot see how we could logically put all the transiting trucks on it, as it already supports heavy traffic > There is simply not enough room for this, and this is why there is still not a total ban on truck transit.
In addition, for what I know, there is no suitable loading-unloading railway station for trucks, nor in Italy, nor in Germany near border areas.

By the way, Swiss trucks must also pay the "Alpine axis truck tax" (Performance-related heavy vehicle charge LSVA), which as you see, isn't exclusively for transiting. As a matter of fact, this tax is not only perceived for Alpine highways, but for all roads in Switzerland (by kilometers), even on plain land.
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Old January 17th, 2015, 07:33 PM   #2892
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The other thing that could be done in Switzerland, is reducing the passenger railway traffic, and put instead more freight and trucks on rail . This would be coherent, and it would allow to ban all transiting trucks from everywhere: North-South, East-West; even indigenous trucks (except for local shipping). But, Swiss people are too much train-loving nation to allow this to ever happen .
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Old January 18th, 2015, 02:17 PM   #2893
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Quote:
Originally Posted by John Maynard View Post
By the way, Swiss trucks must also pay the "Alpine axis truck tax" (Performance-related heavy vehicle charge LSVA), which as you see, isn't exclusively for transiting. As a matter of fact, this tax is not only perceived for Alpine highways, but for all roads in Switzerland (by kilometers), even on plain land.
The big difference is that Swiss trucks pay per ton by an on-board appliance, whereas foreign trucks pay by their maximum allowed weight (mostly 40 tons), even if they're carrying a very light freight or even empty. This makes a huge difference in transporting costs.

Also: Swiss trucks are getting priority in case of the truck 'blockings', vehicle checks, bad weather, incidents etc.
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Old January 18th, 2015, 02:27 PM   #2894
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Anyone (not only Swiss registered vehicles) can buy a device to pay the the tax. However, it makes sense only if they enter Switzerland frequently. Trucks without such device declare how much km they have done when they enter and how much when they leave the country, and the tax is calculated on the difference (as said by Jeroen, in this case total allowed weight is considered, not the actual weight).

Trucks with the yellow S on red background have priority, but this is given only to internal traffic (Zürich-Ticino for instance, but not Zürich-Milano or Stuttgart-Ticino). I don't have statistics but I suppose this should mean 20% or less of transalpine trucks.
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Old January 26th, 2015, 10:46 PM   #2895
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Visp tunnel

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Originally Posted by Coccodrillo View Post
all the others (including the western bypass tunnel) are said to be opened in 202X, which means nobody knows when.
Main works of the Tunnel Visp started today. It's announced to be completed by late 2019, see press release (DE/FR).
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Old January 27th, 2015, 12:42 AM   #2896
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MichiH View Post
Main works of the Tunnel Visp started today. It's announced to be completed by late 2019, see press release (DE/FR).
I hope that there will be no more delays or other major polluted sites discovered .
In fact, A9 motorway from Sierre to Brig was announced to be completed by 200X, after "delays" it became 201X, and now I just wish it won't be 203X . Just to imagine crossing still at a snail's pace this section, and at foot speed all over Visp, for another long time makes me very angry .

Moreover, I think it's incredible and very mindless all the measures they took to reduce traffic, they closed all the many 2+1 sections, and lowered the speed to 60 km/h on many places, put many traffic lights and pedestrian crossings (every 20 meters or so in Visp), that despite the motorway still not being opened

Last edited by John Maynard; January 27th, 2015 at 01:51 AM.
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Old January 27th, 2015, 09:41 AM   #2897
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Is the a9 going to be extended beyond Brig, or it's just about closing the missing links?
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Old January 27th, 2015, 11:11 AM   #2898
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Quote:
Originally Posted by g.spinoza View Post
Is the a9 going to be extended beyond Brig, or it's just about closing the missing links?
Nope, A9 is the Simplon highway, therefore it's ending on the Swiss-Italian border in Gondo. Actually, the remaining section u/c is due to close the gap between Sierre and Visp-East/Eyholz, where there is already a small stretch of motorway in service, and an autostrasse to Simplon Pass:

https://www.google.ch/maps/@46.29792...1584,14z?hl=fr

https://www.google.ch/maps/dir/46.28...!4m1!3e0?hl=fr

And don't get fooled by Google Maps, it takes sometimes more than an hour to achieve the 30 kilometers, especially when traffic is nearly stopped in Visp .

Scheme of the remaining section:

Last edited by John Maynard; January 27th, 2015 at 11:22 AM.
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Old January 27th, 2015, 11:27 AM   #2899
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So the autostrasse to the border is already in construction, or is it already an autostrasse?
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Old January 27th, 2015, 12:38 PM   #2900
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The autostrasse finishes in Ried-Brig. The rest of the road is a Kantonsstrasse (albeit, being part of National Roads III class road), but it's smooth, has large curves, 2+1 sections, many tunnels, bridges and galleries; it's also fast, as you can drive 80 km/h almost the entire route. One may say it's like an autostrasse (though not being it), and is often being called here "mountains highway".
In fact, the mountainous Simplon Pass road is much faster, pleasant and easy go, than the Upper Valais plain land - missing link - main road to access it .
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