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Old May 9th, 2009, 05:39 PM   #381
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dinivan View Post
cars still run with the same combustion engines... how do tunnels eliminate pollution?
But the base tunnel has trains running in it
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Old May 9th, 2009, 06:06 PM   #382
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Coccodrillo View Post
Use the Mont Blanc tunnel then (33.20 € for the tunnel alone, plus the price of the A5), or the Brenner motorway (14 € Verona-Brennero).
To go from Milan to Basel? Are you following the discussion?

Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisZwolle View Post
By the way, they're now cleaning the Gotthard pass, but there are still 6 meters of snow up there. So it's not an alternative year-round.


Quote:
Originally Posted by keber View Post
Actually yes. It is just 85 km difference (around one hour).
Until very recently there was no southern Zurich bypass, and believe me, you don't wanna drive through the city, so the Gotthard pass was still a better option. But not good enough, that's the point. And your option isn't good enough either. Also, many people go to Bern, which makes it an even bigger detour. I don't understand the Swiss; don't they drive too? Surely they have to go over the pass too, if they don't wanna wait in front of the tunnel for hours?
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Old May 9th, 2009, 09:10 PM   #383
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To go from Milan to Basel? Are you following the discussion?
It was a reply about the concerns of the price of the vignette. It is cheaper to use swiss motorways 14 months than crossing the Mont Blanc tunnel once.

From Milan to Basel the only option is the Gotthard, or maybe the San Bernardino and the Lötschberg-Simplon shuttle. But from Bologna to Frankfurt, as example, you can use the Brenner.

And this is an important point: a second tube cannot be paid by tolls on the existing tunnel. Road tolls are forbidden in Switzerland, with the two exceptions of Munt la Schera and Gran St Bernard tunnels, and the shuttle trains.

Quote:
I don't understand the Swiss; don't they drive too? Surely they have to go over the pass too, if they don't wanna wait in front of the tunnel for hours?
Personally, I use the train.

And think also that the Valais canton (300.000 inhabitants) has only one main road connection to the rest of the nation, via the A9 to Lake Geneva. And there are no more proposals of a motorway, after the 10 km Rawil tunnel project has been canceled (of it, only 3 km of service tunnel have been built).
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Old May 9th, 2009, 09:20 PM   #384
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It was a reply about the concerns of the price of the vignette. It is cheaper to use swiss motorways 14 months than crossing the Mont Blanc tunnel once.
A vignette is the ultimate way for small countries to rip off tourists, especially in the Alps, where nearly all tourists are drive only like 200 - 250 kilometers two times, sometimes even less. It's only cost-effective if you drive significant distances or periodes on those road networks, and is therefore a nice thing for their own citizens.

I have to agree though, that many object tolls are outrageous, not only the Mont Blanctunnel, Frejustunnel, but also the Danish and Swedish bridges.
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Old May 10th, 2009, 03:11 AM   #385
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Coccodrillo View Post
Personally, I use the train.
No offense, but that's expensive. F.e. Kandersteg - Goppenstein costs 20 CHF Monday-Thursday for cars one way and 25 CHF Friday-Sunday and at public holidays. Not to mention waiting times. And I can't imagine waiting times, if everyone chose to use train under the Gotthard.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Coccodrillo View Post
And think also that the Valais canton (600.000 inhabitants) has only one main road connection to the rest of the nation, via the A9 to Lake Geneva. And there are no more proposals of a motorway, after the 10 km Rawil tunnel project has been canceled (of it, only 3 km of service tunnel have been built).
I don't think Valais needs anything more than that, given all the mountains surrounding it.
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Old May 10th, 2009, 03:16 PM   #386
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http://www.sk.zh.ch/internet/sk/de/m...2.Document.pdf

What's the current status on the third Gubristtunnel in Zürich?
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Old May 10th, 2009, 04:11 PM   #387
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Verso View Post
Until very recently there was no southern Zurich bypass, and believe me, you don't wanna drive through the city, so the Gotthard pass was still a better option. But not good enough, that's the point. And your option isn't good enough either. Also, many people go to Bern, which makes it an even bigger detour. I don't understand the Swiss; don't they drive too? Surely they have to go over the pass too, if they don't wanna wait in front of the tunnel for hours?
We are talking about those few weekends, when they are tens of kilometers of quees, not everyday traffic. Those tourist are complaining waiting hour or two before Gotthard, but it seems they don't complain because of similar waiting times on French and Italian toll barriers. Or waiting in long quees every working day at commuting.

Regarding safety: even in two tube tunnels catastrophic accidents can happen. Swidd have alternatives, just use them, if you need.
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Old May 10th, 2009, 04:49 PM   #388
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Quote:
Originally Posted by keber View Post
We are talking about those few weekends, when they are tens of kilometers of quees, not everyday traffic. Those tourist are complaining waiting hour or two before Gotthard, but it seems they don't complain because of similar waiting times on French and Italian toll barriers. Or waiting in long quees every working day at commuting.
No, no and no. Queues before the Gotthard aren't just a few weekends a year. I've driven through it numerous times, so I know what I'm talking about. Last time I drove through it, there was a 20-km queue before it, and it was on a workday, with no accident. Queues just happen every now and then, all the time, often unexpected. It's not 20 km usually (except in summer and holidays), but 5 km easily. And when you don't expect it, you don't leave the motorway until you see the jam, and interchanges are rare there. The last one is then just 2 km before the tunnel, so there's no use in going over the pass any more. And waiting times in summers aren't just an hour or two, but several hours. As for French and Italian toll stations, they can't build dozens of them just for summers, while a double-tube tunnel is useful anytime. And surely you don't have to wait as long as before the Gotthard. As for commuting, not much can be done about it, and you don't commute nearly as long as you wait before the Gotthard. By building such a long and expensive rail tunnel, but not much cheaper road tunnel, Switzerland is surely getting a very bad image. That said, I'm ending the discussion.
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Old May 10th, 2009, 05:03 PM   #389
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Verso View Post
No offense, but that's expensive. F.e. Kandersteg - Goppenstein costs 20 CHF Monday-Thursday for cars one way and 25 CHF Friday-Sunday and at public holidays. Not to mention waiting times. And I can't imagine waiting times, if everyone chose to use train under the Gotthard.
I mean that I use the train leaving the car at home. Sometimes I find daily tickets for 25 euro valid on all trains (except touristic lines).

Anyway, prices for shuttle trains should be lowered and frequencies increased, in my opinion.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Verso View Post
I don't think Valais needs anything more than that, given all the mountains surrounding it.
Nor Tessin or Graubunden, if it wasn't for transit traffic.
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Old May 10th, 2009, 05:05 PM   #390
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"If" is a very important word sometimes.
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Old May 10th, 2009, 05:38 PM   #391
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Transit traffic doesn't bring richness, only problems, especially if the roads are not tolled.

That's the point: a new tunnel would not be paid by tourist going to Italy, but from citizen's taxes. If they want it, they should open their wallet.
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Old May 10th, 2009, 05:49 PM   #392
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If there was such a substantial problem with Gotthard, Swiss would already revolt. Comparing to everyday city commuting for many those problems are not severe. Especially because they exist affordable possibilities for detour.
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Old May 10th, 2009, 05:50 PM   #393
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Coccodrillo View Post
Transit traffic doesn't bring richness, only problems, especially if the roads are not tolled.
I'd like to see, if you'd talk like that, if you lived in a country situated in the middle of nowhere.

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Originally Posted by Coccodrillo View Post
That's the point: a new tunnel would not be paid by tourist going to Italy, but from citizen's taxes. If tehy want it, they should open their wallet.
Are you saying the Swiss don't use the tunnel and don't need it?
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Old May 10th, 2009, 05:57 PM   #394
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Originally Posted by keber View Post
If there was such a substantial problem with Gotthard, Swiss would already revolt.
They don't, because everyone's telling them to build it, so they don't build it just because they don't like "dictates" from other countries. Sth like Slovenia, which doesn't wanna build that short motorway to Croatia (Maribor - Zagreb), with all "dictates" from Croatia, Austria, Germany etc. even less. Just that Gotthard is much more important.
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Old May 10th, 2009, 06:08 PM   #395
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I'd like to see, if you'd talk like that, if you lived in a country situated in the middle of nowhere.
This is not the case of Switzerland.

Quote:
Are you saying the Swiss don't use the tunnel and don't need it?
They use it but if there weren't transit traffic a second tube would not be needed.

I may accept a second tube if...

1) freight transit is moved to railway
2) it is paid also by the UE or by tolls, not only by Switzerland
3) a referendum approve it
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Old May 10th, 2009, 06:44 PM   #396
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To be frank, I don't think you understand the problems. Neither transit nor trucks are the problem of the Gotthard. The daily average truck traffic is only 3.400, for reference; major truck corridors in Belgium, Germany or the Netherlands carry 15.000 - 20.000 trucks per day. Average daily traffic is also not the problem, although it would be safer to have no "gegenverkehr" at 15.000 per day (two tubes).

The current capacity of the Gotthard is about 15.000 to 20.000 vehicles per day (given that there are only two lanes). When you add a second tube, that capacity does not double, no, it increased four to fivefold! A 2x2 motorway can carry 80.000 per day, a figure which I think will never be reached on the Gotthard. The problem is leftist, green and railgroups are trying to create the image that with a second tube, problems will only get worse "MORE TRUCKS, MORE POLLUTION!" they'll shout.

The problem are really not only foreigners, Swiss use the tunnel themselves too, and I bet the majority of the traffic is still Swiss there, except maybe some peak days in the summer. Don't tell me the Swiss never go south for a nice weekend on Lago Maggiore or Lago di Lugano.

The Gotthard should be two-tubed as soon as possible, to increase traffic safety, to reduce pollution from idling traffic, and to improve travel times.
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Old May 10th, 2009, 07:01 PM   #397
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You have reason, too.

As can bee seen from the charts I have posted traffic is mainly during summer and mainly made of private cars. A second tube would probably not double the traffic, because in winter the tunnel is under utilized because of lack of traffic, not lack of capacity (10.000 vehicles/day).

In 10 years time the existing tunnel will close for maintenance for a long period of time, we will then see what will be done. A proposal is to build a second tunnel, then close the first for a year.

This said, there is still the point of the financing. I'm also curious to see the effect of the new railway.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisZwolle View Post
The problem are really not only foreigners, Swiss use the tunnel themselves too, and I bet the majority of the traffic is still Swiss there, except maybe some peak days in the summer.
I can give you some numbers about the railway. The Gotthard rail tunnel is used by 10.000 people/day on average. Of these, 6400 leave the train before the border, 2800 go from northern Switzerland to Como, Milano or beyond, 800 go from France/Germany to Italy. These 3.700.000 passengers per year are expected to double by 2020 following some predictions. With the Lötschberg base tunnel rail passengers increased by 30% in one year.
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Old May 10th, 2009, 07:12 PM   #398
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In 10 years time the existing tunnel will close for maintenance for a long period of time, we will then see what will be done. A proposal is to build a second tunnel, then close the first for a year.
Seems like a good idea. Isn't there already a second tube for maintenance and emergency vehicles?

About the rail: the problems is that most queues are caused by holiday peaks, inside and outside the tourist season. That kind of traffic hardly will get on a train, or won't use their car at all. So build the Gotthard Base tunnel will not decrease the problems they have now. Trucks are more or less the same, I don't think you will find many transport companies that are eager to get their trucks loaded onto a train for a relatively short distance (3 hours of hauling basically).
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Old May 10th, 2009, 07:18 PM   #399
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I just checked, the Swiss truck tolls:

€ 0,016 per km per tonne

So travelling the entire A2 from Basel to Chiasso will cost a 40 tonne truck € 193,80
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Old May 10th, 2009, 07:37 PM   #400
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The secont tube is the pilot and service tunnel, that is only about 6 m in diameter. It was planend to be second tube, as you can see from the southern portal, that has two entrances, one for the southbound tube (in service for bidirectional traffic), one for the northbound tube (built with small section as pilot tunnel). The second tunnel, if realized, would be a completely new bore, not an enlargement of the pilot tunnel as planned 25 years ago. The service tunnel would still be used for cables, maintenance, rescue, etc. To enlarge it these cables should be placed elsewhere in the existing running tunnel.

The second tube would anyway need a referendum, because new transalpine roads are banend by Swiss Constitution, and to modify it a referendum is mandatory.

Quote:
That kind of traffic hardly will get on a train, or won't use their car at all.
Yes, it is true.

Quote:
Trucks are more or less the same, I don't think you will find many transport companies that are eager to get their trucks loaded onto a train for a relatively short distance (3 hours of hauling basically).
For trucks it is different. The original project promised that two years after the opening of the Lötschberg base tunnel (or by december 2009) the trucks would have been limited to 650.000/year instead of 1.300.000 throught all of the four main roads crossing the Alps in Switzerland (but still, traffic is divided about 70% on the Gotthard, 20% on the San Bernardino, 5% each for Simplon and G S Bernard). The target date has been moved from december 2009 first to 2012, then to 2019.

To reach this objective of 650.000 trucks per year it is planned to finance traditional or combined rail transport, but not shuttle trains like the Eurotunnel. Shuttle trains are used and finances on the Simplon-Lötschberg axis, but is a very limited part of rail transport and this service will not be improved.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisZwolle View Post
So travelling the entire A2 from Basel to Chiasso will cost a 40 tonne truck € 193,80
It depends of emissions, for an Euro 2 truck the toll is bigger than for an Euro 5 one. The crossing of the Mont Blanc tunnel for a similar truck is, for comparison, 241,90€.
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