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Old May 10th, 2009, 07:41 PM   #401
Verso
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Coccodrillo View Post
This is not the case of Switzerland.
That's what I'm saying, you don't know what it's like to live in the middle of nowhere. You're blind, but it's a huge advantage to live in a transit country. Many more pluses than minuses.

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Originally Posted by Coccodrillo View Post
They use it but if there weren't transit traffic a second tube would not be needed.
Are you a nationalist? In any case, the Swiss also have to wait for hours in front of the tunnel (if you choose to go through it), regardless of how numerous you are. Switzerland is a very rich country, which building a very expensive 57-km rail tunnel only proves. So don't say you can't get 2 billion CHF. It's Switzerland's daily GDP.
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Old May 10th, 2009, 07:42 PM   #402
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I find the "objective" of only 650.000 trucks per year very unrealistic. In this day and age, you can't expect a transit corridor to have only 1.800 trucks per day. Why are they so anti-trucks? They are also not allowed to drive at night, right? (which is not a bad idea because of "lärmschutz")
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Old May 10th, 2009, 07:53 PM   #403
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Verso View Post
Switzerland is a very rich country, which building a very expensive 57-km rail tunnel only proves.
If Switzerland is rich, is because it thinks 10 times before spending monley for a public work.

And if it had a lot of money, it would have not posponed the construction of the Wisenberg and Zimemrberg Base tunnels to increase capacity on two lines that elsewhere would be considered staurated by traffic (500 trains/day on two tracks and 170 on single track respectively, that is, almost the double of what is considered "high traffic" for a railway).

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Originally Posted by ChrisZwolle View Post
I find the "objective" of only 650.000 trucks per year very unrealistic. In this day and age, you can't expect a transit corridor to have only 1.800 trucks per day. Why are they so anti-trucks? They are also not allowed to drive at night, right? (which is not a bad idea because of "lärmschutz")
Switzerland agreed to be a transit corridor, but for railways.

Why? To avoid congestion, pollution, noise, maybe to show that it has not to follow UE directives.

And also because pollution and especially noise are big problems on mountainous areas, but less in flat lands like The Netherlands.
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Old May 10th, 2009, 08:16 PM   #404
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Coccodrillo View Post
Why? To avoid congestion, pollution, noise
You're getting ridiculous. We've said numerous times that one tube creates more pollution and noise than two tubes, and less congestion by one tube? Are you making fun of us?

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Originally Posted by Coccodrillo View Post
maybe to show that it has not to follow UE directives.
Not maybe, that's the whole point: to exercise your precious sovereignty objecting the mighty half-billion EU. You simply enjoy it.

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Originally Posted by Coccodrillo View Post
Switzerland agreed to be a transit corridor, but for railways.
A day might come in the future (I hope not), when no one will ask you to agree on anything. You know, wars often start because of precious transit routes. No one ever cared about conquering shitholes.
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Old May 10th, 2009, 09:26 PM   #405
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Verso View Post
We've said numerous times that one tube creates more pollution and noise than two tubes, and less congestion by one tube?
Yes, it is true. But some fear that more capacity means more traffic, then more pollution. Tell your ideas to them, not only to me.

I have also said that traffic is mainly during summer: during winter there is less traffic because there is less demand. This means than a second tube would not bring more traffic, in winter at least.

Anyway, nothing will happen until the discussion about the renovation of the existing tunnel will get more attention, in 5 to 10 years.

=========================================

There is a lot of web pages on discussion on this object. Here some links, only in German, French or Italian, on the opinion of the Swiss government. I will search for opther or translate, if this can be of interest...

http://www.parlament.ch/I/Suche/Pagi...ch_id=20083745
http://www.parlament.ch/I/Suche/Pagi...ch_id=20083602
http://www.parlament.ch/I/Suche/Pagi...ch_id=20083553
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Old May 10th, 2009, 11:34 PM   #406
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Verso View Post
That said, I'm ending the discussion.
If there is no more to say, ok.

I add only that in august 2008 commenced the studies regarding the rebuilding of the tunnel. The result of these studies will be discussed within the DATEC (department of transprot) by the end of 2010.

And the last links in French:
https://ch.indymedia.org/fr/2004/01/17759.shtml
http://alpen.sac-cas.ch/html_f/archi...2004_01_11.pdf

Quote:
Originally Posted by keber View Post
Also looking at following document at page 14 there is traffic density map. Looks like, that A13 is pretty much empty. So if people don't like to wait hours before Gotthard, maybe the should consider taking not very long detour.

http://www.astra.admin.ch/dokumentat..._JjKbNoKSn6A--
The same document in English: http://www.astra.admin.ch/dokumentat...x.html?lang=en
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Last edited by Coccodrillo; May 10th, 2009 at 11:42 PM.
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Old May 11th, 2009, 09:44 AM   #407
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Verso View Post
You're getting ridiculous. We've said numerous times that one tube creates more pollution and noise than two tubes, and less congestion by one tube? Are you making fun of us?
You know, if you repeat things they don't become true. Of course larger capacity will lead into more traffic. Which leads into more pollution.

The thing is, a 2x2 tunnel would be against the constitution. If there will be a second tube, it will be a 1x1 (one lane per tunnel) option.
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Old May 11th, 2009, 10:10 AM   #408
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Quote:
Of course larger capacity will lead into more traffic. Which leads into more pollution.
you think idling for 3 hours causes less pollution than say, 20% more traffic?
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Old May 11th, 2009, 10:24 AM   #409
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Some facts;

NOx emission;

cars 0 - 15 km/h 0.75 g/km
cars 90 - 100 km/h 0.21 g/km

heavy trucks 0 - 15 km/h 14.2 g/km
heavy trucks 90 km/h 4.6 g/km

PM10 emission:

cars 0 - 15 km/h 0.065 g/km
cars 90 - 100 km/h 0.041 g/km

heavy trucks 0 - 15 km/h 0.42 g/km
heavy trucks 90 km/h 0.18 g/km

If we look at these emissions, you can see trucks emit over 3 times more NOx when in stagnating traffic, and 2 times more PM10 when in stagnating traffic.

So it's in everybody's interest that the Gotthard becomes 2x2, even when it means somewhat more traffic, it will still be better than the current situation.
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Old May 11th, 2009, 11:05 AM   #410
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NOx emission of one truck current situation in Switzerland with 10km jam: 280*4.6 + 10* 14.2 = 1430
NOx emmission of one truck without traffic jams: 4.6*290 = 1334
Now let's assume we have 20% more traffic -> 1334*1.2 = 1600.8

So with the second tube we have a increase of pollution of 12%. But this doesn't include new traffic jams at other bottlenecks lick Ciasso Lucerne and Basel that will be caused by the rise of traffic by 20%.
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Old May 11th, 2009, 11:08 AM   #411
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You're thinking about the whole transit route, which is not interesting, you want to know the situation around the Gotthard (say 10km from the tunnel).

Besides that, traffic will get significantly cleaner in the future, more hybrids, electrical cars, emission standards with tighten, etc.
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Old May 11th, 2009, 11:31 AM   #412
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With the opening of the NEAT the freight transport will go through the base tunnel, this will help much more than a second road tube.
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Old May 11th, 2009, 11:36 AM   #413
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Quote:
Originally Posted by earthJoker View Post
With the opening of the NEAT the freight transport will go through the base tunnel, this will help much more than a second road tube.
But how are the Swiss gonna manage that, I mean, are they just gonna sit back and wait to the trucks to go onto a train voluntarily? I guess that won't work, so they somehow have to manage that the train will be more attractive, you can do that by increasing tolls, thus pricing the trucks off the roads (increasing inflation), or somehow delay the trucks at the Gotthardtunnel by creating a LKW-stau (they already do that). What will the train fare be for a truck?
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Old May 11th, 2009, 12:08 PM   #414
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A13:
image hosted on flickr


A1 Zürich:
image hosted on flickr


A1/A3
image hosted on flickr
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Old May 11th, 2009, 12:26 PM   #415
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisZwolle View Post
A13:
image hosted on flickr
exactly my homebase

have been there yesterday too on that highway
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Old May 11th, 2009, 12:34 PM   #416
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I want to make a video of this road:
image hosted on flickr
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Old May 11th, 2009, 01:31 PM   #417
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisZwolle View Post
A13:
image hosted on flickr
I think it's still A3 at this place. It's A13 after the signed interchange.
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Old May 11th, 2009, 01:32 PM   #418
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it´s shot in Sargans, or ?!
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Old May 11th, 2009, 01:39 PM   #419
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Yeah, looks like Verzweigung Sarganserland (end of A3)
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Old May 11th, 2009, 03:09 PM   #420
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Of course, you see the Fläscherberg and the Falknis behind it (mountain).
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