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Old May 11th, 2009, 03:32 PM   #421
Energy2003
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yes, that´s exactly what i learned at school


boring, but nice region



to be ontopic: good road quality as i remember
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Old May 11th, 2009, 04:06 PM   #422
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisZwolle View Post
But how are the Swiss gonna manage that, I mean, are they just gonna sit back and wait to the trucks to go onto a train voluntarily? I guess that won't work, so they somehow have to manage that the train will be more attractive, you can do that by increasing tolls, thus pricing the trucks off the roads (increasing inflation), or somehow delay the trucks at the Gotthardtunnel by creating a LKW-stau (they already do that). What will the train fare be for a truck?
It is not known what will the fare of the truck shuttle throught the railway tunnel, simply because there will not be this service. The target is to increase rail transport from the origin in Italy to the destination in Germany, not to ferry trucks between the two portals of the tunnel. If there will be truck shuttles, they will be a minor part of rail traffic, say 5%. This is different from what is proposed for the Lyon-Turin project or for the Eurotunnel.

http://www.bav.admin.ch/verlagerung/?lang=it (no English version...)

Transfert of freight traffic to railway can be achieved by:
- tax on trucks (these 193.50€)
- upgrading of railways and new lines
- railway reform (open access, other companies can use Swiss railways)
- the UE accepts the tax on trucks
- financement of intermodal transport (mainly containers), the rolling higway is not developed a lot (no shuttles like Eurotunnel, then)

The referendums were:
- 1992 and 1998: AlpTransit was approved
- 1994: the ban of the construction of new transalpine roads or improvements in capacity on existing one is written in the Swiss Constitution (this means that building a second Gotthard road tunnel is against de Constitution ==> to construct it, it is ncecessary a referendum to modify the Constitution)
- 1994 and 1998: approvation of the tax on trucks
- 2001: approvation of some treaties with the UE, including one about transports
- 2004: the Avanti initiative was rejected, it demanded among other things the doubling of the Gotthard road tunnel

The datas fond by ChrisZwolle about pollution at stop may be correct, but the question is more complicated than that.

There are a few documents in English thought:
http://www.bav.admin.ch/verlagerung/...hoJVn6w==&.pdf
http://www.bav.admin.ch/verlagerung/...hoJVn6w==&.pdf (in 4 languages)
http://www.bav.admin.ch/verlagerung/...Mps2gpKfo&.pdf (summary in English)
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Last edited by Coccodrillo; June 29th, 2010 at 03:58 PM. Reason: typing error
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Old May 11th, 2009, 04:14 PM   #423
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It is not known what will the fare of the truck shuttle throught the railway tunnel, simply because there will not be this service. The target is to increase rail transport from the origin in Italy to the destination in Germany, not to ferry trucks between the two portals of the tunnel. If there will be truck shuttles, they will be a minor part of rail traffic, say 5%. This is different from what is proposed for the Lyon-Turin project or for the Eurotunnel.
hmm, okay, I thought it was some kind of shuttle service between Basel and Chiasso... I don't really believe freight will just move to rail, at least not in Europe... I remain skeptical about the "solution" that these plans are. It looks like this huge rail tunnel is build on hopes and dreams rather than reality...
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Old May 11th, 2009, 04:36 PM   #424
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It is a dream, but built on reality.

The Gotthard is the only axis with both motorway and road, at least on the Alps, where rail traffic is bigger than road traffic.

The new rail tunnel will reduce the limits of gradients (they limit a lot the weight and capacity of the trains), there will generally be more space for trains, and these will be heavier, so I'm optimistic. It will also reduce travel time for passenger by one hour, so also passenger traffic will grow.
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Old May 11th, 2009, 05:43 PM   #425
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Coccodrillo View Post
The new rail tunnel will reduce the limits of gradients (they limit a lot the weight and capacity of the trains), there will generally be more space for trains, and these will be heavier, so I'm optimistic.
You'll never get me on that train.

A question: why was the 10-km-long Seelisberg tunnel built double-tube?
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Old May 11th, 2009, 05:45 PM   #426
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IMO the best way in Alp transit is to put the freight on railway (no matter if its containers or trucks or whatever) as you typically have one corridor with lots of traffic, so it justifies heavy trains.

On the Brenner route, the truck-on-trains services (Munich-Verona and Brenner-Munich) works quite well afaik.
The main advantage for logistic companies isn't htat their trucks don't loose time in jams but that they don't need petrol for several hundred kilometres and, maybe most important, that the drivers can take their pauses without loosing time. So it's not only tolls, jams and so on...
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Old May 11th, 2009, 09:21 PM   #427
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You'll never get me on that train.
Then don't complain about tunnel queues, as Switzerland is giving a real good alternative to car (paid entirely by Swiss for both Swiss and foreigners) and yet you show disdain towards it.
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Old May 11th, 2009, 09:38 PM   #428
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Then don't complain about tunnel queues, as Switzerland is giving a real good alternative to car (paid entirely by Swiss for both Swiss and foreigners) and yet you show disdain towards it.
Driving over the pass is a much better alternative than paying 30 CHF for the train to transport your car. And waiting times will be measured in hours. No, thanks.
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Old May 11th, 2009, 11:02 PM   #429
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Then don't complain about tunnel queues, as Switzerland is giving a real good alternative to car (paid entirely by Swiss for both Swiss and foreigners) and yet you show disdain towards it.
Is that really how the discussion goes in Switzerland? Get forced into the train, or otherwise shut up, pay 40 CHF and wait in a queue?
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Old May 11th, 2009, 11:04 PM   #430
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Quote:
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Then don't complain about tunnel queues, as Switzerland is giving a real good alternative to car (paid entirely by Swiss for both Swiss and foreigners) and yet you show disdain towards it.
really

so there is no extra tax for lorries paid by non-swiss, right..?
no NEAT funds i suppose..
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Old May 12th, 2009, 01:28 AM   #431
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Is that really how the discussion goes in Switzerland? Get forced into the train, or otherwise shut up, pay 40 CHF and wait in a queue?
Swiss voted on the issue and decided to boost rail traffic instead of road traffic and pay a huge amount of francs in order to fulfill that decision. It's a completely democratic decision, so why should the swiss government ignore the swiss vote just to please foreigners who think the train is not nice enough for them? (anyway, it can't, but it's just a supposition) I really think these comments saying that the Swiss government should increase road capacity using Swiss taxes because "you'll never get me on that train" are extremely rude towards all swiss citizens, after all, the rail tunnel is mainly being built for transit transport, the main reason wasn't for Swiss to arrive a bit earlier to Milano from Zuerich.
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Old May 12th, 2009, 03:49 AM   #432
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So we can conclude the Swiss are smarter than everyone else.
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Old May 12th, 2009, 09:26 AM   #433
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Our political system is unique. That's what we can conclude.
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Old May 12th, 2009, 09:29 AM   #434
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I don't like referendums. People who don't know squat about things get to decide, and traffic engineers are put aside in this case. (and others probably).
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Old May 12th, 2009, 12:09 PM   #435
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A referendum is better than a contested decision of a Governement (like the protests for the new Lyon-Turin railway).

Anyway, the first project for AlpTransit is of about 1940, it is not a new idea, and there are even traffic enginnees who thinks that a second road tunnel could not be a good idea

Quote:
Originally Posted by Verso View Post
You'll never get me on that train.

A question: why was the 10-km-long Seelisberg tunnel built double-tube?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Verso View Post
Driving over the pass is a much better alternative than paying 30 CHF for the train to transport your car. And waiting times will be measured in hours. No, thanks.
There will be no shuttle trains for cars or trucks, nor via the base nor the summit tunnels, except during road accidents or in special circumstances (ex. maybe dangerous goods).

Passenger trains are for those that travel, say, for work or for those that doesn't have the need of a car. Nobody expect that all people will use the train. Some people within Switzerland and a lot of the transit tourists will still use the road.

About the Seelisberg tunnel, they silmpy expected more traffic that throught the Gotthard. The summit road tunnel has in fact an AADT of 10.000 during winter, not really much. Also at the time of construction road freight traffic was low, even on the Mont Blanc tunnel or on the Brenner.

Quote:
Originally Posted by gramercy View Post
so there is no extra tax for lorries paid by non-swiss, right..? no NEAT funds i suppose..
Non-swiss trucks in transit pays from Basel to Chiasso around 193.50€ (depending of the type of truck), that is less than a single passage throught the Italian-French road tunnels (about 240€, excluding the price of the access motorways).
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Last edited by Coccodrillo; June 29th, 2010 at 04:02 PM. Reason: typing error
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Old May 12th, 2009, 04:46 PM   #436
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I think we said enough about the Gotthard discussion, maybe it's time to move on.

Another thing I notice in Switzerland are the road numbers, or the lack there of. Is there a reason why so few roads (non-Autobahnen) have a road number?
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Old May 12th, 2009, 05:31 PM   #437
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Coccodrillo View Post
There will be no shuttle trains for cars or trucks
And you expect families with all their stuff to go to the sea by train?

What's the "summit road tunnel", btw?
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Old May 12th, 2009, 06:01 PM   #438
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I think we said enough about the Gotthard discussion, maybe it's time to move on.
Ok. I want just to reply to Verso.

Nobody think that all the people will go by train. Train will be more attractive for business travels, or for some tourists, for some going for a weekend south of the Alps, nobody ask belgians or germans to go to the italian sea carrying all their stuff on the train. They will continue to use the car, maybe a few will use the german AutoZug (there are and were some, like Hamburg-Livorno).

I end saying that...
...the Gotthard tunnel has queques only 6 months per year ==> the Government thinks that other project are more urgent
...another tunnel means more capacity ==> referendum
...another tunnel is seen as an action against the protection of the Alps ==> forbidden by the law
You can or you can't agree that, but that is what government thinks. If Swiss want a second tunnel, they have just to make a proposition for its financing, reach 50.000 signatures for a referendum, then make a referendum, and hope to win it. If in a referendum the majority of voters decide for a second tunnel, then it could be built. Even if the government wanted it, even if Italy or Germany pay for it, there must be a referendum. But a the moment the majority voted no (artcile for the protection of the Alps, Avanti initiative).

The summit road tunnel is the Gotthard road tunnel...but it is in fact the only one. The word "summit" is use to difference the two rail tunnels (Gotthard Base Tunnel/Summit Tunnel, or Basistunnel/Scheiteltunnel in German).

The end. (?)

Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisZwolle View Post
Another thing I notice in Switzerland are the road numbers, or the lack there of. Is there a reason why so few roads (non-Autobahnen) have a road number?
I don't know. But I think numbering the road would be a good idea. Only motorways and national roads are numbered, plus a few others.
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Old May 12th, 2009, 06:26 PM   #439
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Coccodrillo View Post
...the Gotthard tunnel has queques only 6 months per year


Quote:
Originally Posted by Coccodrillo View Post
...another tunnel is seen as an action against the protection of the Alps
Poor valley, really. Instead of a free-flowing, minimally polluting traffic, you rather have exhaust gases accumulating before the tunnel whole day, and people driving over the pass means even more pollution. Bringing more traffic with a second tube, and thus more pollution, is a myth. There will be no more traffic in winter, because there's no problem driving through a single-tube tunnel, if there are no waiting times. People aren't going to cancel their vacations just because of waiting times before the Gotthard tunnel. And that few more traffic there would be, if there were no waiting times, would add much less pollution than you'd get rid of with a free-flowing traffic. Nothing more to say.
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Old May 12th, 2009, 06:28 PM   #440
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I don't know. But I think numbering the road would be a good idea. Only motorways and national roads are numbered, plus a few others.
Maybe it's because of the relatively large amount of dead-end roads (in valleys). But still, a nice 2 and 3-digit network would work quite well.
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