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Old August 26th, 2009, 11:52 AM   #641
thun
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@ Chris: Apparently it's the system of all (national) toll roads, where it doesn't matter whether they are motorways or "Autostrassen." The "Kantonsautobahnen" (motorways owned by the cantons) aren't on the map, too.

The "Y" won't be build, right?
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Old August 26th, 2009, 12:44 PM   #642
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thun View Post
@ Chris: Apparently it's the system of all (national) toll roads, where it doesn't matter whether they are motorways or "Autostrassen." The "Kantonsautobahnen" (motorways owned by the cantons) aren't on the map, too.
It's the system of national roads. Not all roads shown are toll roads and not all are motorways or "Autostrassen".
The ones Chris mentioned are regular "Hauptstrassen".
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Old August 26th, 2009, 01:58 PM   #643
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The Gotthard Road Tunnel will not close for refurbishment before 2017. The pass road will be upgraded to keep it opened for a longer period, and shuttle trains will carry cars throught the old tunnel. Details will be revealed in 2010.

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Dank der Schiene keine zweite Röhre
24.08.2009 - Die Alpen-Initiative nimmt erfreut zur Kenntnis, dass das Bundesamt für Strassen (Astra) bei der Planung der Sanierung des Gotthard-Strassentunnels die SBB einbezieht.

Der Gotthard-Strassentunnel muss in den nächsten Jahren saniert werden. Die Alpen-Initiative ist der Ansicht, dass diese Arbeiten vernünftig und ohne übermässige Einschränkungen für den Strassenverkehr ausgeführt werden können. Ganz im Sinne der Alpen-Initiative hat das Astra entschieden, die Zusammenarbeit mit den SBB zu suchen. Sie werden nach der Eröffnung des neuen Eisenbahntunnels durch den Gotthard ihre Kapazitäten im alpenquerenden Verkehr massiv erhöhen können. Falls diese Kapazitäten optimal genutzt werden, ist eine zweite Strassenröhre nicht notwendig. Damit können auch die Kosten für eine Luxussanierungsvariante eingespart werden.
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Niente raddoppio grazie alla ferrovia
24.08.2009 - L'Iniziativa delle Alpi ha appreso con soddisfazione che l'Ufficio federale delle strade (Ustra) coinvolgerà le FFS per il risanamento della galleria autostradale del San Gottardo.

La galleria autostradale del Gottardo dovrà essere sottoposta a importanti lavori di risanamento nei prossimi anni. L'Iniziativa delle Alpi ritiene che queste opere possano essere attuate ragionevolmente e senza eccessive limitazioni per il traffico stradale. L'Iniziativa delle Alpi apprezza quindi la decisione dell'Ustra di cercare la collaborazione con le FFS. Le ferrovie saranno infatti in grado di aumentare fortemente le proprie capacità di trasporto attraverso le Alpi dopo l'apertura della nuova galleria di base del Gottardo. Utilizzando in modo ottimale queste capacità di trasporto, non è necessario un secondo tubo autostradale. In questo modo sarà anche possibile risparmiare i costi che deriverebbero da un risanamento eccessivamente lussuoso della galleria autostradale.
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Old August 26th, 2009, 02:19 PM   #644
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Oh my god what a nonsense:
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Ganz im Sinne der Alpen-Initiative hat das Astra entschieden, die Zusammenarbeit mit den SBB zu suchen. Sie werden nach der Eröffnung des neuen Eisenbahntunnels durch den Gotthard ihre Kapazitäten im alpenquerenden Verkehr massiv erhöhen können. Falls diese Kapazitäten optimal genutzt werden, ist eine zweite Strassenröhre nicht notwendig.
Because of the railway tunnel, a second tube is not needed? Are they stupid, thinking that all those caravans and people on vacation will go on a train? I can say one thing: rail & environmental lobby. It has nothing to do with realism anymore, which is typical with rail advocates.

Realism & pragmatism should rule, not ideology
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Old August 26th, 2009, 04:05 PM   #645
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisZwolle View Post
Thinking that all those caravans and people on vacation will go on a train?
Surely not.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisZwolle View Post
I can say one thing: rail & environmental lobby. It has nothing to do with realism anymore, which is typical with rail advocates.
Sometimes yes, sometimes no.
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Old August 26th, 2009, 08:33 PM   #646
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Well I think you can go with your car on the train.

But hell we need a second tube! 12km jam is not funny in the summertime. When is a accident or something else the tube get closed.

For "new" peoples, here is the tunnel we talking about:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O5kD-OKaTas
Please rate the video.

And how to build in YT videos here?
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Old August 26th, 2009, 08:37 PM   #647
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Or, better: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O5kD-OKaTas
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Old August 26th, 2009, 08:45 PM   #648
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Coccodrillo View Post
And whats the different?
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Old August 26th, 2009, 09:24 PM   #649
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Governments should stop paying subsidies to railway companies.

In Slovenia, environmental lobby is against everything ... they are bored at their workplaces so they simply have to grab every chance they get.
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Old August 26th, 2009, 09:27 PM   #650
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Quote:
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Governments should stop paying subsidies to railway companies.
Nah, when that happens, ticket prices triple. Not exactly fair to those who have no other option of mobility.
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Old August 26th, 2009, 10:07 PM   #651
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nils16 View Post
And whats the different?
I saw only some HTML code, the video wasn't embedded (even if you have removed it now).

==============================

Road transport has subsidies, too. Directly to trucks companies, or in the form of roads (nearly all roads in Europe and a lot of motorways aren't tolled). Some extra costs aren't paid directly by road users eithers: pollution, accidents, traffic jams, ...

As always, there is not a "good" choice and a "bad" one. Excess in either direction isn't a good thing.
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Last edited by Coccodrillo; June 30th, 2010 at 12:28 AM. Reason: typing error
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Old August 26th, 2009, 10:08 PM   #652
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Roads are constructed by taxes. There is no such thing as "free roads". You only pay it more indirectly; in the monthly road tax, purchase tax and when pumping gas, not to mention other forms of taxes.
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Old August 26th, 2009, 10:10 PM   #653
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Railways too.
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Old August 26th, 2009, 10:18 PM   #654
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Yes, but the tax cost per passenger mile for railways is typically 10 times higher.
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Old August 27th, 2009, 09:28 AM   #655
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thun View Post
The "Y" won't be build, right?
In the wet dreams of some people: Yes.
In reality it's nonsense based on plans from the 70ties where they thought they could build an Autobahn right through the city. But the canton of Zürich still is planning on the "Stadttunnel" project.
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Old August 27th, 2009, 10:04 AM   #656
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nils16 View Post
Well I think you can go with your car on the train.

But hell we need a second tube! 12km jam is not funny in the summertime. When is a accident or something else the tube get closed.

For "new" peoples, here is the tunnel we talking about:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O5kD-OKaTas
Please rate the video.

And how to build in YT videos here?
Then why nobody try to start another referendum for the second tube?
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Old August 27th, 2009, 04:29 PM   #657
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Some statistics (TGM = AADT): http://www.ti.ch/dt/dstm/sm/Temi/Conteggi_traffico/
Gotthard Tunnel (A2): http://www.ti.ch/dt/dstm/sm/Temi/Con...ta/doc/150.pdf
San Bernardino Tunnel (A13): http://www.ti.ch/dt/dstm/sm/Temi/Con...ta/doc/044.pdf
Other points: http://www.ti.ch/dt/dstm/sm/Temi/Con...a/localita.asp
A map of counting stations can be found here: http://www.ti.ch/dt/dstm/sm/Temi/Con...8_completo.pdf (page 2)
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Old August 27th, 2009, 04:33 PM   #658
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I'm having a hard time to believe that the July/August average is only 24.000 AADT. Maybe they factored out the holiday traffic.
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Old August 27th, 2009, 04:46 PM   #659
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Traffic is greater in summer (and this was obvious), but on summer weekends it is still greater than during the week.

If the AADT on friday, saturday and sunday is 35.000, and the other days of july and august is 17.000, the average then is only 24.000.
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Old August 27th, 2009, 04:49 PM   #660
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35.000 wouldn't cause such traffic jams of 20+km and 5+ hours of waiting time. If your theory is true, the tunnel authorities are deliberatly obstructing traffic flow.
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