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Old August 27th, 2009, 05:00 PM   #661
Coccodrillo
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I don't know exact numbers. I wanted to say than if there are big differences between days and hours then the average doesn't reflect the real situation. As far I know, the record of vehicles in a day has been of more than 40.000 (but in the file about the Gotthard Tunnel it is written that the record was 33.255 on 19.07.2008).

And in a file I have linked it is written:

Da ottobre 2002 è in vigore il sistema del contagocce alla galleria del S.Gottardo e del S.Bernardino (max 1000 unità-veicolo/ora)

Or, since october 2002 in both tunnels there is a limit of 1000 vehicles/hour (for each direction, I presume).
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Old August 27th, 2009, 05:08 PM   #662
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Coccodrillo View Post
Or, since october 2002 in both tunnels there is a limit of 1000 vehicles/hour (for each direction, I presume).
Hmmm okay. Safety (and probably backroom policies) causing these traffic jams. Because normal one lane highways can handle up to 2500 vehicles per hour per lane.
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Old August 27th, 2009, 05:35 PM   #663
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Hmmm okay. Safety (and probably backroom policies) causing these traffic jams. Because normal one lane highways can handle up to 2500 vehicles per hour per lane.
In one tube tunnel at 60 km/h?
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Old August 27th, 2009, 05:51 PM   #664
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The rules of the Fréjus Tunnel are even stricter, even if the traffic is much lower: distance between vehicles minimum 150 m, distance between a truck and a bus following it 300 m. Gotthard Tunnel: 50 m between vehicles, 150 m before trucks. And I'm sure that traffic lights or barrier prevents vehicles starting before this distance is reached.
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Old August 27th, 2009, 06:25 PM   #665
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Some alternatives for a Basel-Alessandria trip:

via Gotthard
4h36 (4h13 on motorways)
430 km (414 on motorways)

via San Bernardino
5h46 (5h03 on motorways)
530 km (490 on motorways)

via Bern-Lötschberg Shuttle-Brig-Simplon
5h23 (2h39 on motorways)
414 km (284 on motorways)
(sometimes there are direct shuttle trains throught the Lötschberg and Simplon tunnels, 1h of travel time)

via Bern-A12-A9-Brig-Simplon
5h58 (3h54 on motorways)
532 km (416 on motorways)
(something less with the opening of the A9 between Sierre and Brig in 2014)
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Old August 27th, 2009, 07:26 PM   #666
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In one tube tunnel at 60 km/h?
80 km/h.

The main problem is this traffic jam isn't completely stationary, you can drive 100 m every minute. Instead of just idling, you're constantly in motion uphill. Think of the fuel consumption. With a second tube, all these problems will disappear.
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Old August 28th, 2009, 03:54 AM   #667
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Are they stupid, thinking that all those caravans and people on vacation will go on a train? I can say one thing: rail & environmental lobby. It has nothing to do with realism anymore, which is typical with rail advocates.
interesting ...
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Japan and France have both spent about as much on high-speed rail as they have on their intercity freeway systems, yet the average residents of those countries travel by car 10 to 20 times as much as they travel by high-speed rail. They also fly domestically more than they take high-speed rail. While the highways and airlines pay for themselves out of gas taxes and other user fees, high-speed rail is heavily subsidized and serves only a tiny urban elite.
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Old August 28th, 2009, 05:20 AM   #668
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I find it hard to believe that only a tiny urban elite uses HSR. Besides, ain't HSR the most popular choice between major cities in Japan?
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Old August 28th, 2009, 10:55 AM   #669
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I think HSR and PT has a majority between city centers. The problem is, traffic has much more connections than just city-center to city-center. A high share to city centers is dwarfed by a much higher share in suburban and rural for personal transport. That's why in the end, personal transport still has a majority in even Japan, not to mention other countries.
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Old August 28th, 2009, 01:40 PM   #670
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Quote:
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I find it hard to believe that only a tiny urban elite uses HSR. Besides, ain't HSR the most popular choice between major cities in Japan?
The AADT of the Gotthard Tunnel in winter is about 12.000, of which about 3.000 are trucks. Counting 2 people per car this means 18.000 people per day. The railway carries 10.000 passengers per day, not really a tiny elite.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rail_us...ics_by_country

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...les_per_capita

==========================================

It is not only a problem of queues.

http://www.admin.ch/ch/e/rs/c101.html (articles 84 and following)

http://www.admin.ch/ch/e/rs/101/index.html (articles 84 and following)

I know no one valley in the Alps, in the Pyrenees or elsewhere that doesn't protest against transit traffic, new motorways or new railways. Just see the protests for the Pau-Somport(-Zaragoza) motorway, for the Toulouse-Zaragoza railway, or for the Lyon-Fréjus-Turin railway. The protest for the second tube of the Fréjus road tunnel. The protests for the trucks running in the Chamonix valley. The...

Swiss accepted the fact that because of their position they can't lock traffic between Europe and Italy, but demanded that as much traffic as possible (especially freight) would use trains. Instead, the people living in the valleys around the Fréjus and Mont Blanc railways/motorways don't want nor trucks, nor new railways, saying that they are not a transit corridor. A little more egoistic, I think (even if they say it would be better reducing transported goods, but that is another matter).

Swiss target is at least to reduce trucks from 1.300.000 to 650.000 per year, not only forbidding them to pass, but offering in exchange a railway (but not shuttles like Eurotunnel).

This said, traffic on the A2 is concentrated in summer, especially on some week ends. In winter the AADT is 12.000, below the capacity limit (as can be seen here, between November and March there are not many queues). This means that even with a second tube, the private traffic in winter would surely remain low, maybe slightly more in summer, bout would probably not explode. What I fear more are trucks, constant along the year. Ok, I know that somewhere in The Netherlands there is a motorway with 100.000 AADT...but on flat terrain you don't notice that, between mountains, noise and pollution are more fastidious than in a flat region.

To end this short (?) note, I don't want a second tube now (yes, in a thread about Switzerland there will always be a discussion about it...also on newspaper this topic emerges every summer), but if the target of 650.000 trucks will be reached, I might change my opinion.

(nb 650.000 counting also San Bernardino, San Bernardo and Simplon motorways/roads)

==========================================

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_1w2rxx6yNQ

12 wagons x 4 cars each = 48 cars per train
48 x 8 trains = 384 cars per hour
384 x 12 hours x 2 directions = 9.216 cars per day

Shuttle trains will never be capable to carry all trafic, if the Gotthard tunnel close, summer traffic must be diverted on the pass or on the A9/A13/A21.
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Last edited by Coccodrillo; June 30th, 2010 at 12:38 AM. Reason: typing error
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Old August 28th, 2009, 01:51 PM   #671
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I have found for 2 euros a book about the construction of the Gotthard motorway.
It has been published even before the beginning of the construction of the summit tunnel.

Here I found a map of the motorways planend in these years. The A16 wasn't planned,
instead the A6 was projected from Bern to Sion, I don't know if as full motorways like the A2
or as a fast road like the A13. It would have been a 10 km tunnel under the Rawil pass.
A 3 km exploratory tunnel has been excavated to gain information about the geology.
Of this project only the Bern-Thun and the Wimmis spur have been built.
Search "Rawil Tunnel" with Google.

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Old August 28th, 2009, 03:35 PM   #672
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I find it hard to believe that only a tiny urban elite uses HSR. Besides, ain't HSR the most popular choice between major cities in Japan?
Only one Shinkansen line (Tokyo-Osaka) is profitable.
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Old August 28th, 2009, 05:08 PM   #673
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Help elder people in hospital is a cost without return, as old people can't work. Should we kill all people more than 75 years old?
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Old August 28th, 2009, 06:12 PM   #674
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisZwolle View Post
I think HSR and PT has a majority between city centers. The problem is, traffic has much more connections than just city-center to city-center. A high share to city centers is dwarfed by a much higher share in suburban and rural for personal transport. That's why in the end, personal transport still has a majority in even Japan, not to mention other countries.
I agree about rural area, but for suburban areas it depends on the city since not all suburbs are American style sprawl.
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Old August 28th, 2009, 06:16 PM   #675
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Yes, but you don't necessarily need American/Australian/Canadian style sprawl to have high car shares, especially for commuting to work.
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Old August 28th, 2009, 06:45 PM   #676
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People are lazy and take their car even when it isn't needed. Where I live the same trip to the city centre (3 km) can be done in 10 minutes by bus in the off peak, but in at least 20 minutes by car during peak hours without counting the search for a car park (but some people have a reserved place in their building). 3 km isn't much but with about 120 m of difference in altitude a few people walk or take a bicycle (or walk going down returning by bus).
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Old August 28th, 2009, 06:48 PM   #677
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People are lazy
This is the main problem in transportation planning. If people don't do their transportation behaviour according to some ideology, "people are lazy".
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Old August 28th, 2009, 07:09 PM   #678
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Take a car to make 2 or 3 km when there are good alternatives (public transport or your own feet) IS laziness.

You will never have fluid traffic when all people think it's an own right going by car everywhere. Also that it's ideology.

Obviously, often a car is usefull, and for some trips it's faster. But it is not always the best solution.
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Old August 28th, 2009, 07:17 PM   #679
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A lot of behaviour are stupid, and a lot are caused by laziness. Look here: http://maps.google.ch/maps?f=q&sourc...02406&t=h&z=19

There is often jam on Via Pretorio caused by people trying to park in this small parking. This cause jams on Corso Pestalozzi and lock buses trying to enter the white bus station, worsening the situation. And whitin 200 m there are five multi level car parks. And a lot of these stupid people wait keeping their engines on.
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Old August 28th, 2009, 09:32 PM   #680
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Only one Shinkansen line (Tokyo-Osaka) is profitable.
SO you think, that othertwo shinkansen companies work with a loss? I don't think so.
TGV Paris-Lyon paid itself in just about 10 years.
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