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Old September 6th, 2009, 01:00 PM   #701
H123Laci
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Coccodrillo View Post
Help elder people in hospital is a cost without return, as old people can't work. Should we kill all people more than 75 years old?
very good metaphor!
the rail is a sick elder people who cant work...

but while its immoral to kill sick elder people, its not immoral to kill the rail...
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Old September 6th, 2009, 06:27 PM   #702
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Rail is just as important as roads. If you don't like it, don't ride it. Not everybody likes driving like you do.
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Old September 6th, 2009, 08:39 PM   #703
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The A13 near Roveredo (GR) seen from a train. The autostrasse cut the village in two, but it will replaced by a 2,4 km tunnel (still one lane per direction) under construction under a mountain on the southern side. The existing road will be demolished.

Google Maps: http://maps.google.ch/maps?f=q&sourc...09624&t=h&z=17




Some street running of the same railway.



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Old September 6th, 2009, 09:10 PM   #704
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LtBk View Post
Rail is just as important as roads. If you don't like it, don't ride it. Not everybody likes driving like you do.
you totally missed the point...
its not about liking... its about tax, economy, efficiency and comfort...
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Old September 6th, 2009, 10:06 PM   #705
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Taxes: it's the way the world works, but (at least here) money is not wasted
Economy: considering train tickets, 45 € for a month of public transport within all my region, considering car, 10 € for fuel, plus the cost of a car, it's use (maintenance, ...)
Efficiency: I walked for one km (good weather, then it was a pleasure), took the train, then changed directly to the bus
Comfort: I talked with a friend and read, then I took some photos and relaxed without worring abour the road

But if you aren't swiss, ecologist or if you are accustomed to your car, then you will never understand me
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Last edited by Coccodrillo; September 6th, 2009 at 10:18 PM.
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Old September 6th, 2009, 10:41 PM   #706
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Coccodrillo View Post
But if you aren't swiss, ecologist or if you are accustomed to your car, then you will never understand me
I really don't understand. All that care for environment and yet Switzerland kills every bear that enter this "environmentally friendly" country ... for who are you protecting the environment if not for the wildlife?
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Old September 6th, 2009, 11:01 PM   #707
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Coccodrillo View Post
But if you aren't swiss, ecologist or if you are accustomed to your car, then you will never understand me
Do you have a list that doesn't take millions of tourists into account?

By the way, only 15% at the same price for 85% of the rest of transportation? I would say that's an epic cost-usage ratio failure...
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Old September 7th, 2009, 12:26 AM   #708
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this is not that bad as you can imagine. Passengers-km:



But...

Quote:
The comparative strengths of public transport lie in the inner cities, in passenger traffic from city to city and in commuter traffic for people travelling to work and school. On the Zurich–Bern route, the railways achieve a modal split of 88 percent, and on the Zurich–St. Gallen line they reach 73 percent. Public transport reports a much less successful performance in leisure and shopping traffic.
Traffic between sparse villages and unhabitated valley will never take public transport, but none wants to do so. The target is to increase public transports (*) where they are useful, not everywhere.

Road transport will always be higher in passenger-km...imagine 4.500 people scattered in dozen of valleys each doing 45 km, then 40.000 people doing 5 km. Both are about 200.000 pax-km (4500x45=40000x5). I choose these number thinking at real situations: the 4.500 people doing 45 km are inhabitants scattered on a big number of different destination (==> PT not attractive), the 40.000 people doing 5 km are a good estimation of students going to the university of Lausanne with M1 tramway line (==> PT fundamental, if each of them wanted to use his/her car, the university must dedicate half of its space for parkings and roads).

(*) obviously some PT lines not justified by usage have to be maintained for people without cars (children, elder people, people that for whatever reason don't/can't drive, etc)

(from http://www.voev.ch/Modal_split.html)

Then about freight traffic:



Near 45% of the tonnes-km is transported by train, boats or pipelines. And:

Quote:
Switzerland has so far been the most successful country in Europe with regard to shifting freight from the roads to the railways: rail transport is responsible for 66 percent of all transit freight traffic across the Alps (that is, excluding domestic traffic). The figures for Austria and France are 24 and 22 percent, respectively.
Other citations from there: http://www.voev.ch/Capacity_utilisat...e_network.html

Quote:
According to today’s estimates, transport performance is expected to increase from 14 to 20 billion passenger km, or 45 percent, by the year 2030.
Italian railways does 45 billion passenger km, The Netherland have about the same traffic as Switzerland.

Quote:
On the main axes, freight traffic is operating to almost full capacity. At the Gotthard, the number of trains is expected to rise from 180 to 260. To the south of the Jura, on the stretches between Olten, Yverdon and Lausanne, 140 trains are expected to circulate in future, instead of today’s 120. Between Basel and the Limmattal railroad shunting yard, it is envisaged to double the number of currently 32 freight trains per day.
In Europe a railway is considered as much used when it has between 250 and 300 trains per day of different types (intercity, regional, freight) if it has two tracks, and 80 trains per day on single track with passing loops. At the moment, most used swiss railways of each of the two categories have 400 (with provision for 500) and 170 trains per day.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisZwolle View Post
By the way, only 15% at the same price for 85% of the rest of transportation? I would say that's an epic cost-usage ratio failure...
Then no, rail (public transport) investments are not a failure. The failure is investing only on road, only on rail, or trying to use the wrong mean of transport on the wrong place.

=============================================================

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Originally Posted by pijanec View Post
For who are you protecting the environment if not for the wildlife?
For people! About the nature, it has to be protected, but no if animals become too dangerous.
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Last edited by Coccodrillo; September 7th, 2009 at 12:31 AM.
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Old September 7th, 2009, 01:37 AM   #709
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Quote:
much less successful performance in leisure and shopping traffic
Shopping traffic?
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Old September 7th, 2009, 02:06 AM   #710
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Yes. You don't want to carry all those bags from shop into a bus.
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Old September 7th, 2009, 02:09 AM   #711
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Coccodrillo View Post
For people! About the nature, it has to be protected, but no if animals become too dangerous.
People can comfortable live in completely urban areas. They don't need vast areas of protected nature for that. Switzerland is killing animals when they enter the country - it doesn't matter if they pose danger. In Slovenia, half the size of Switzerland, there is more than 600 bears and 0 threats for people.
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Old September 7th, 2009, 02:25 AM   #712
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Switzerland is much more densely populated than Slovenia though, particularly in the countryside, which is always densely inhabited in CH (except mountains).
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Old September 7th, 2009, 09:42 AM   #713
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Coccodrillo View Post
Taxes: it's the way the world works, but (at least here) money is not wasted
nope.
its the way europe works. (high tax on cars, high subsidies on PT)
e.g. usa works another way...

Quote:
Economy: considering train tickets, 45 € for a month of public transport within all my region, considering car, 10 € for fuel, plus the cost of a car, it's use (maintenance, ...)
put the taxes and subsidies into the calculation...

Quote:
Efficiency: I walked for one km (good weather, then it was a pleasure), took the train, then changed directly to the bus
and what if there is bad weather?
or if you are in hurry?
or carrying something/someone?

try look at things not only from your point of view...
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Old September 7th, 2009, 09:59 AM   #714
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Quote:
Originally Posted by H123Laci View Post
put the taxes and subsidies into the calculation...
From http://www.voev.ch/Costs.html:

Cost structure
Rail traffic requires more investment into infrastructures but is less expensive with regard to safety and the environment

In 2003, road transport cost CHF 65.1 billion and rail transport CHF 10.3 billion, equalling a total of CHF 75.4 billion, about 20 percent of GDP.

In both modes of transport, the costs for rolling stock take the lion’s share of the total costs. On the roads, 66 percent of the total is spent on vehicles, whereas the railways spend 53 percent of the total on their trains. In road transport, safety is the next expensive item (16 percent). For the railways, investments into infrastructures (42 percent) are second on the list. The costs for the environment (noise, health, damage done to buildings, climate, air pollution and impact on nature and the countryside) and safety are much lower for rail transport.

Neither of the two modes of transport covers all the costs it causes. Taking into account the compensations paid for services to the public, road and rail transport achieve a cost coverage of 92 and 93 percent, respectively.

The specific costs per unit of transport in passenger traffic amount to 50 centimes per passenger kilometre for individual motor cars and 40 cents per passenger kilometre for rail traffic. Road haulage (57 centimes per tonne kilometre) costs two times more than rail freight (27 centimes per tonne kilometre).






Quote:
Originally Posted by H123Laci View Post
and what if there is bad weather?
or if you are in hurry?
or carrying something/someone?
1) if there was bad weather I would not have done this trip at all
2) then I would have used the car, but as it was sunday and I was on vacation, I had plenty of free time
3) if I had to carry my grand mother then I would have used the car, but as my friend came by train, I used the same train of him
4) if I wanted to go there I would have used the car (I posted some photos of this dam some time ago)
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Last edited by Coccodrillo; June 30th, 2010 at 01:01 AM. Reason: typing error
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Old September 7th, 2009, 10:24 AM   #715
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Thanks for the stats Coccodrillo
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Old September 7th, 2009, 10:54 AM   #716
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Quote:
Originally Posted by keber View Post
SO you think, that othertwo shinkansen companies work with a loss? I don't think so.
TGV Paris-Lyon paid itself in just about 10 years.
Paris - Lyon ok, but what about others routes?
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Old September 7th, 2009, 06:09 PM   #717
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I think its about the fifth time that this discussion came up in this thread.

Being not Swiss, I have to say that cocodrillo is right: The share of railways is extremely high.
And investing in the rail infrastructure in country like Switzerland (most of the people living in the densely populated "Mittelland" region combined with a large share of passengers and goods travelling on defined transit corridors) makes much more sense than almost everywhere else! And it absolutely justifies putting more effort in rail compared to the extension of motorways (the important motorways exist already, and on the transit routes within the sensitive Alps region, a railway line has normally much less impact on both the ecology and the local population).
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Old September 7th, 2009, 06:18 PM   #718
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The problem is rail transport is used as an excuse for not building the second Gotthard tunnel tube. If they added the second tube, the mainline motorway network would be completed, and most Gotthard problems would disappear or diminish significantly.
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Old September 7th, 2009, 07:27 PM   #719
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Another problem is that in Switzerland when the construction of a new public infrastructure start (not only roads and railways) this continues without problems and solve really problems.

But it is really difficult to start building, there are years of discussions and no work can begin if the funding is not secured. Politicians discuss for years, and often end saying that "yes, this project is interesting, but we there are more urgent things to do and we don't have enough money for all, we will reconsider this project in a few years".

This means that on transport infrastructures there are a lot of bottlenecks, or real holes. For motorways, there are holes near Biel/Bienne on the A5, in the upper Valais, the Gotthard tunnel, on the shared stretch of A1 and A2.

But also on railways. There are three main lines, all double track, with about 200 trains/day each, all with a short stretch of single track. One in particular is the second main east-west railway with a lot of traffic, but with 3 km of single track near Biel/Bienne. This is a terrible bottleneck, to solve it it would be needed only a 2,5 km tunnel, but still, there is some that says that "there is not money". Again near Biel/Bienne there were discussion for 40 years for a motorway bypass. By 2009, only half of it is under construction, for the other, there are only discussions, discussions, discussions...

...they say that 3 km of single track are not a big problem, that yes, you have to traverse Biel/Bienne using urban roads but this is not a problem, that on the Gotthard Tunnel queues are only on some days of the year, that...that...money is better invested elsewhere so we can postpone these projects.

About the Gotthard Tunnel, the target is transfer on rails as much traffic as possible (that is, mainly trucks in transit) leaving the motorway for light vehicles. I think that a second tube will not be built before 1) transit freight is moved as much as possible on trains 2) all other big projects are completed (A5 Biel/Bienne bypass, A8 Bruenig, A9 Valais, A16) freeing the money "created" by oil taxes 3) someone search 100.000 signatures to start a referendum asking for a second tube.
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Old September 7th, 2009, 08:18 PM   #720
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The Swiss and most of Europe in general are lucky to have good transportation infrastructure.
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