daily menu » rate the banner | guess the city | one on oneforums map | privacy policy | DMCA | news magazine | posting guidelines

Go Back   SkyscraperCity > Infrastructure and Mobility Forums > Highways & Autobahns

Highways & Autobahns All about automobility



Global Announcement

As a general reminder, please respect others and respect copyrights. Go here to familiarize yourself with our posting policy.


Reply

 
Thread Tools
Old September 8th, 2009, 12:28 AM   #721
thun
Registered User
 
thun's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 3,829

I totally agree with Cocodrillo. Of course, being in the jam on the Gotthard when you want to get to the beach as fast as possible sucks, but for the Swiss, this isn't the worst bottleneck in their transport infrastructure to solve.

And nevertheless, its quite doubtable, that a second tube could handle those few peak days (maybe you would need a Blockabfertigung for security reasons even with two tubes). Investing millions for it isn't really a economic cost/effect relation.
__________________
Folglich mein TagesTipp => Es genau so hinzunehmen wie ich es sagte. Notorisches Widersprechen wird nichts bringen. Ehrlich! Vertraut mir da voellig!
__________ __________ __________
thun no está en línea   Reply With Quote

Sponsored Links
Old September 8th, 2009, 10:19 AM   #722
Timon91
Error
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: just outside Germany
Posts: 5,783
Likes (Received): 46

A second tube would definately shorten the jams and the waiting times. A small jam on a peak day isn't a problem, because the situation can only improve, and not worsen, with a second tube.
__________________
My Flickr account.
Some of my photoseries: Northern Ireland, Prague, Boston, Alaska part 1, 2, 3, Smoggy Moscow, Warsaw, Wrocław, Kiev, Donetsk, Odessa and Chişinău.
Timon91 no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old September 8th, 2009, 12:24 PM   #723
ChrisZwolle
Road user
 
ChrisZwolle's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Zwolle
Posts: 43,604
Likes (Received): 19391

Quote:
Originally Posted by thun View Post
And nevertheless, its quite doubtable, that a second tube could handle those few peak days (maybe you would need a Blockabfertigung for security reasons even with two tubes). Investing millions for it isn't really a economic cost/effect relation.
Then why are there no traffic jams at the Seelisbergtunnel? Or the tunnels in Luzern? Or at interchange Lopper?
ChrisZwolle está en línea ahora   Reply With Quote
Old September 8th, 2009, 12:32 PM   #724
Coccodrillo
Moderator
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Switzerland
Posts: 7,200
Likes (Received): 767

I don't have here the book about the Gotthard motorway, but I remember that when the Tunnel was built its capacity was 900 vehicles/hour/direction. Not only for security reasons but also for problems of ventilation. It was also said that with less polluting vehicles this limit could be raised.

If now vehicles are limited to, say, 1000 vehicles/hourd/direction with a second tube, no bidirectional traffic and more powerful ventilation this may grow a little but not to 4000.

Anyway, the 2,5 km railway tunnel on a railway congested all over the year will not be built soon, then forget a 17 km road tunnel congested only a part of the year. Maybe after having completed the other motorways...
__________________
1.6.2016: Basistunnel!

für Güter die Bahn ~ pour vos marchandises le rail ~ chi dice merci dice ferrovia

Last edited by Coccodrillo; June 30th, 2010 at 01:08 AM. Reason: typing error
Coccodrillo no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old September 8th, 2009, 12:43 PM   #725
ChrisZwolle
Road user
 
ChrisZwolle's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Zwolle
Posts: 43,604
Likes (Received): 19391

Quote:
It was also said that with less polluting vehicles this limit could be raised.
]

We are now already implementing Euro 6, that's a staggering difference with 1980's trucks.
ChrisZwolle está en línea ahora   Reply With Quote
Old September 8th, 2009, 12:52 PM   #726
Coccodrillo
Moderator
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Switzerland
Posts: 7,200
Likes (Received): 767

Yes - but the book was printed in 1970, they did'nt know that
__________________
1.6.2016: Basistunnel!

für Güter die Bahn ~ pour vos marchandises le rail ~ chi dice merci dice ferrovia
Coccodrillo no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old September 8th, 2009, 01:02 PM   #727
thun
Registered User
 
thun's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 3,829


The main problem isn't CO2 but noise pollution for the locals, I would say. And Euro 6 (which will have only very few cars within the next 10 years anyway) doesn't solve that. And a second tube which potentially attracts more traffic doesn't so either.

I don't know about the safety regulations in Switzerland but e. g. on peak days there's Blockabfertigung at the Katschbergtunnel (two tubes) in Austria for safety regulations, too. I assume that the longer the tunnel is (and we talk about much more than 16km!) the more restricting the safety regulations would need be. Of course a way shorter tunnel (one or two tubes doesn't matter) can handle much more traffic. That makes me assume that this might happen on the Gotthard as well.

Anyway, as we said, there are way more important bottlenecks than the Gotthard for Switzerland. Investing hundreds of millions to solve a bottleneck that occurs only on some summer weekends doesn't make sense at all. Besides there's a large part of the population against the second tube (as showed by two referendums), so I highly doubt that you'll see it within the next few decades.

Btw.: You know that they need to renovate the tube? Its said that this will mean either to close it for a whole year or for two summer seasons...
__________________
Folglich mein TagesTipp => Es genau so hinzunehmen wie ich es sagte. Notorisches Widersprechen wird nichts bringen. Ehrlich! Vertraut mir da voellig!
__________ __________ __________
thun no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old September 8th, 2009, 01:33 PM   #728
Coccodrillo
Moderator
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Switzerland
Posts: 7,200
Likes (Received): 767

Details of the refurbishing plan will be revealed next year. It will probably be closed for two years. They will rebuild all safety equipments and maybe increase the height (today about 4 metres) raising the ceiling. The tunnel will be closed after the opening of the new railway tunnel, leaving the old tunnel for car shuttles. The pass road will be kept open as long as possible even during the winter. Considering loading times and available stock there could be shuttle train every 10 minutes, that is 50 cars per train x 6 trains per hour per direction = 300 cars.

Quite a low capacity...the problem is that there aren't now many shuttle trains. Some are intensively used on the Loetschberg shuttle. Maybe closing the Simplon shuttle and using the spare trains of the Lotschberg there could be 3 or 4 trains for the Gotthard - but to have 6 shuttle sper hour more would be needed.

A better solution would be tell transit cars to make the detour via Bern-A12-A9-Gran San Bernard or Simplon and the A13.

Quote:
Originally Posted by thun View Post
The main problem isn't CO2 but noise pollution for the locals, I would say. And Euro 6 (which will have only very few cars within the next 10 years anyway) doesn't solve that. And a second tube which potentially attracts more traffic doesn't so either.
Sunday I was on the side of a mountain near the A13, there was a continuous noise in the background. That's why swiss want to transfer freight on trains.

As for car traffic, it is concentrated on summer, on winter the AADT is 12.000 so under the capacity, and there are no queues. A second tube would attract more cars during the summer from adjacent motorways but not in winter. But also trucks, all over the year.
__________________
1.6.2016: Basistunnel!

für Güter die Bahn ~ pour vos marchandises le rail ~ chi dice merci dice ferrovia
Coccodrillo no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old September 9th, 2009, 03:05 AM   #729
pijanec
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Ptuj
Posts: 1,800
Likes (Received): 6

But if people on the referendum vote that second tube should be build ... must government follow people's decision?
pijanec no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old September 9th, 2009, 03:25 AM   #730
Verso
Islander
 
Verso's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Ljubljana
Posts: 22,087
Likes (Received): 4749

Quote:
Originally Posted by thun View Post
I don't know about the safety regulations in Switzerland but e. g. on peak days there's Blockabfertigung at the Katschbergtunnel (two tubes) in Austria for safety regulations, too.
That's because of the one-tube Tauerntunnel and toll station between them. You don't want people waiting in the Katschbergtunnel.
Verso no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old September 9th, 2009, 10:01 AM   #731
Coccodrillo
Moderator
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Switzerland
Posts: 7,200
Likes (Received): 767

Quote:
Originally Posted by pijanec View Post
But if people on the referendum vote that second tube should be build ... must government follow people's decision?
Yes.

But this does not means that funding appears automatically. If the referendum doesn't offer funding then it may take decades to build the tunnel.

The referendum should include a funding system, say, a 0,2% increase on the VAT or the diversion of part of the tax on fuels to the tunnel.

Instead of complaining promoters should then stard to collect 100.000 signatures.
__________________
1.6.2016: Basistunnel!

für Güter die Bahn ~ pour vos marchandises le rail ~ chi dice merci dice ferrovia

Last edited by Coccodrillo; June 30th, 2010 at 01:12 AM. Reason: typing error
Coccodrillo no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old September 25th, 2009, 01:15 PM   #732
Coccodrillo
Moderator
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Switzerland
Posts: 7,200
Likes (Received): 767

Blockabfertigung for the Gotthard Tunnel (1'44''): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZOqkG-oM1jE

Southern waiting point:





Southern portal (left road tunnel, right service tunnel/never built second tube):



Toll booth for shuttle trains still in place after nearly 30 years:

__________________
1.6.2016: Basistunnel!

für Güter die Bahn ~ pour vos marchandises le rail ~ chi dice merci dice ferrovia
Coccodrillo no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old September 25th, 2009, 01:16 PM   #733
Coccodrillo
Moderator
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Switzerland
Posts: 7,200
Likes (Received): 767

Again the A2, but the southernmost part of it.

Map: http://snipurl.com/s459f

After this 1,7 km tunnel (Grancia/San Salvatore)...



...begins a complex of bridges and causeway, partly surrounded by noise barriers.




Local inhabitants wanted a (short) artificial tunnel, but the government decided for ugly noise barriers. The village (Bissone) is already divided in two parts by the motorway and the railway. The two parts are linked only by a road and by a bridge only for pedestrians.





A bridge on the side of the mountain above Capolago. You will see it from the village in the next post.



Beautiful but expensive noise barriers made by glass. They get soil very easily.



The custom, entirely located after the border. I will upload pictures of the italian part of the Gotthard motorway (A9) later. It has some tunnels and bridges starting from here, but afer a few km it runs through entirely flat terrain. It is 2x2 lanes but will be enlarget to 2x3, and even 2x5 in the final part near Milan.

__________________
1.6.2016: Basistunnel!

für Güter die Bahn ~ pour vos marchandises le rail ~ chi dice merci dice ferrovia

Last edited by Coccodrillo; June 30th, 2010 at 01:17 AM. Reason: typing error
Coccodrillo no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old September 25th, 2009, 01:16 PM   #734
Coccodrillo
Moderator
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Switzerland
Posts: 7,200
Likes (Received): 767

Going back, again the same noise barriers.




The bridge of the previous post seen from Capolago. Below it there is a rack railway.





One of the rare flat parts.



Another bridge above Bissone.



View from the bridge-causeway.



In the background entrance of the San Salvatore tunnel.



This photo has been taken exactly below the second one in the previous post.



All photos of these three posts were taken from 13 to 24 september 2009.
__________________
1.6.2016: Basistunnel!

für Güter die Bahn ~ pour vos marchandises le rail ~ chi dice merci dice ferrovia
Coccodrillo no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old September 25th, 2009, 10:16 PM   #735
nils16
Registered User
 
nils16's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Zürich
Posts: 790
Likes (Received): 164

Hello, I just will share thsi video I recorded yesterday on the A16/E27.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BlC5rlvbyS4

Streetview+Map: http://tinyurl.com/y9pbwoq

Sorry its shaky... But I hope you liked it.
__________________
My 360° Panoramashttps://www.google.com/maps/views/pr...=us&pv=1&tab=1
nils16 no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old September 27th, 2009, 01:54 PM   #736
Verso
Islander
 
Verso's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Ljubljana
Posts: 22,087
Likes (Received): 4749

Beautiful. Those tree-like noise barriers by the border always seemed cool to me.
Verso no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old September 27th, 2009, 05:42 PM   #737
Timon91
Error
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: just outside Germany
Posts: 5,783
Likes (Received): 46

Yeah, I like that type of structure. You also see it in the Sagrada Familia in Barcelona
__________________
My Flickr account.
Some of my photoseries: Northern Ireland, Prague, Boston, Alaska part 1, 2, 3, Smoggy Moscow, Warsaw, Wrocław, Kiev, Donetsk, Odessa and Chişinău.
Timon91 no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old October 2nd, 2009, 12:31 PM   #738
nils16
Registered User
 
nils16's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Zürich
Posts: 790
Likes (Received): 164

Does anyone know when they build a 3th Tube for the "Gubrist Tunnel" near Zürich?
Streetview: http://tinyurl.com/gubrist

Every Morning and evening jam there!
__________________
My 360° Panoramashttps://www.google.com/maps/views/pr...=us&pv=1&tab=1
nils16 no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old October 14th, 2009, 09:34 PM   #739
nils16
Registered User
 
nils16's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Zürich
Posts: 790
Likes (Received): 164

Hello

I will share this HD video I made yesterday. Please rate it :-)

From A1 into Zürich.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v-WqvhUSTfM
__________________
My 360° Panoramashttps://www.google.com/maps/views/pr...=us&pv=1&tab=1
nils16 no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old October 14th, 2009, 09:43 PM   #740
ChrisZwolle
Road user
 
ChrisZwolle's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Zwolle
Posts: 43,604
Likes (Received): 19391

The flyovers in the beginning near the Glattzentrum are quite interesting, they seem to be a stub interchange for a motorway towards Zollikon.

It's also weird why the westbound lanes split up around that spot, and merge together again. At first I thought there were two "Zürich-City" interchanges after eachother.
[IMG]http://i38.************/11jrpev.jpg[/IMG]
ChrisZwolle está en línea ahora   Reply With Quote


Reply

Tags
schweiz

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Related topics on SkyscraperCity


All times are GMT +2. The time now is 11:27 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11 Beta 4
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
Feedback Buttons provided by Advanced Post Thanks / Like (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2018 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.

vBulletin Optimisation provided by vB Optimise (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2018 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.

SkyscraperCity ☆ In Urbanity We trust ☆ about us | privacy policy | DMCA policy

tech management by Sysprosium