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Old September 2nd, 2010, 09:04 PM   #881
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What a waste... It would be like a city banning electricity. I'm highly annoyed by these anti-car measures. But after all, its their government. So I take my angry and bitterness against officials who established discriminatory ZTLs in Italy instead.
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Old September 2nd, 2010, 09:06 PM   #882
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Why are you against ZTLs? I think that in the small streets of italian cities they're the only way to keep the city "livable"...
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Old September 2nd, 2010, 09:24 PM   #883
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Quote:
Originally Posted by g.spinoza View Post
Why are you against ZTLs? I think that in the small streets of italian cities they're the only way to keep the city "livable"...
Well, first of all not all ZTLs were created equal... I can understand a ZTL in Urbino, Matera or San Gimignano, or those covering small tracts of narrow medieval streets. Siena ZTL, for instance, is too large, covering wide roads together with real alleys where car traffic would not be feasible.

However, nothing explains the fairness of ZTLs in Firenze, Bologna, Milano and Roma that cover large boulevards and so. Bologna and Roma ZTLs are the worse IMO.

In any case, I'd prefer a toll system that collected the same fare from everyone accessing the area, resident or not. I'd not mind paying some extra euros to go straight to the Due Torri in Bologna, for instance, if I had such option, while other drivers would just park their cars outside the ZTLs to avoid tolls. But they discriminate in favor of residents, which is unfair.

Well, I think we should move this discussion to the Italian road forum
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Old September 2nd, 2010, 09:46 PM   #884
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Quote:
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Bologna and Roma ZTLs are the worse IMO.
I don't know Rome but I like very much Bologna ZTL... the city centre is full of people walking by, I'd prefer them very much over cars...

Quote:
In any case, I'd prefer a toll system that collected the same fare from everyone accessing the area, resident or not. I'd not mind paying some extra euros to go straight to the Due Torri in Bologna, for instance, if I had such option, while other drivers would just park their cars outside the ZTLs to avoid tolls. But they discriminate in favor of residents, which is unfair.
You serious? And discriminating in favour of rich people is better than discriminating in favour of residents???

I bet our political views ar waaaaaay different
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Old September 3rd, 2010, 02:33 PM   #885
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Quote:
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I bet our political views ar waaaaaay different
That's not so hard.
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Old September 3rd, 2010, 10:41 PM   #886
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I don't mind mountain villages or historic city centers being car free. At least give the option to park at the edge. Saas-Fee and Venezia are good examples, Zermatt or Wengen are not.
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Old September 3rd, 2010, 10:57 PM   #887
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There are no good roads to Wengen.

Even if the parkings are outside Zermatt and Wengen I don't see the problem (maybe except train tickets fares).
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Old September 3rd, 2010, 11:09 PM   #888
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisZwolle View Post
Saas-Fee and Venezia are good examples, Zermatt or Wengen are not.
Venezia is not a good example: it does not have ANY roads! You could not drive there even if you wanted to...
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Old September 3rd, 2010, 11:52 PM   #889
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In my opinion, a car-free town or city center should be in walking distance of an accessible parking spot. Zermatt is still 6 km from the end of the road in Täsch (been there a few days ago), which requires a train ride to the town.
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Old September 4th, 2010, 12:00 AM   #890
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As there are frequent trains, this is not a real problem.
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Old September 4th, 2010, 12:05 AM   #891
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Coccodrillo View Post
As there are frequent trains, this is not a real problem.
It IS a problem: is obliges you to pay a rail fare to a mode of transportation you otherwise wouldn't use. It restricts the right of free movement of European citizens. Such schemes should be banned as an human rights issue.
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Old September 4th, 2010, 12:29 AM   #892
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A somewhat more "luftiger" topic:

Shoulder running

A short section of A1 between Lausanne and Morges features shoulder running, implemented recently. As far as I know, this is the first such a scheme in Switzerland. Some pictures of this morning.

1. Begin
image hosted on flickr

shoulder running CH-1 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

2.
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shoulder running CH-2 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

3. SOS
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shoulder running CH-3 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

4. Morges-Est.
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shoulder running CH-4 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

5.
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shoulder running CH-5 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

6. End shoulder running, continues as exit Morges-Est.
image hosted on flickr

shoulder running CH-6 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr
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Old September 4th, 2010, 12:30 AM   #893
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Suburbanist View Post
It IS a problem: is obliges you to pay a rail fare to a mode of transportation you otherwise wouldn't use. It restricts the right of free movement of European citizens. Such schemes should be banned as an human rights issue.
The rights everyone belive to have are desroying us.

The only remarks I can accept is that 11 € return fo 6 km is too high. But Zermatt is a pure tourist destination, if one go there is because it has already money to spend on holidays in a well known resort. If one doesn't want or can to pay 11 €, it is better if he go to other less known but still beatiful villages. But you say in every post that the whole world is based on money, and that products have to be priced according to the demand: so, as Zermatt is really attractive, it is good to ask 11 € to enter it.
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Old September 4th, 2010, 01:56 AM   #894
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Coccodrillo View Post
The rights everyone belive to have are desroying us.

The only remarks I can accept is that 11 € return fo 6 km is too high. But Zermatt is a pure tourist destination, if one go there is because it has already money to spend on holidays in a well known resort. If one doesn't want or can to pay 11 €, it is better if he go to other less known but still beatiful villages. But you say in every post that the whole world is based on money, and that products have to be priced according to the demand: so, as Zermatt is really attractive, it is good to ask 11 € to enter it.
I wouldn't mind pay a € 20 toll, as long as I could drive there.

But let's wait Chris post more photos
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Old September 4th, 2010, 03:18 AM   #895
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Quote:
Originally Posted by g.spinoza View Post
Venezia is not a good example: it does not have ANY roads! You could not drive there even if you wanted to...
Actually... You can now, but only, to the large Ferry ports and industrial areas, as well as a large on island parking garage. The whole thing was contraversial right from it's inception. The same with the rail terminus being relocated to the island as well. Google Earth is your friend, if you want to see.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisZwolle View Post
In my opinion, a car-free town or city center should be in walking distance of an accessible parking spot. Zermatt is still 6 km from the end of the road in Täsch (been there a few days ago), which requires a train ride to the town.
Agreed. Even where I live, there is support for making one downtown street car free. But that won't happen until both multi level parking garages are replaced with more substantial structures and a third one is built.

Zermatt is not large, but not small either. They have perfected a car free municipality, in the same way, the Netherlands has created the worlds most extensive bike path system in the world.

The community has worked hard over the years, to ensure that they remain a walkable, bikeable (bicycles), electric public transport community.
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Old September 4th, 2010, 12:43 PM   #896
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Suburbanist View Post
It IS a problem: is obliges you to pay a rail fare to a mode of transportation you otherwise wouldn't use. It restricts the right of free movement of European citizens. Such schemes should be banned as an human rights issue.
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Old September 4th, 2010, 02:58 PM   #897
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Suburbanist View Post
It IS a problem: is obliges you to pay a rail fare to a mode of transportation you otherwise wouldn't use. It restricts the right of free movement of European citizens. Such schemes should be banned as an human rights issue.
Now you got really insane.
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Old September 4th, 2010, 07:11 PM   #898
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I want to walk on water and fly unaided - can the gravity that makes this things impossible be banned as a human rights issue?

I'm fairly certain that the free movement right doesn't specify which mode - it might have a 'reasonable' clause in there, but I don't think driving a car into the middle of a city when there's a decent rail service from the outskirts is a right. That said, I agree somewhat with ChrisZwolle - everywhere in the no car zone should (which isn't as strong as 'must') be walking distance from a car park.
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Old September 4th, 2010, 08:31 PM   #899
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fargo Wolf View Post
Actually... You can now, but only, to the large Ferry ports and industrial areas, as well as a large on island parking garage. The whole thing was contraversial right from it's inception. The same with the rail terminus being relocated to the island as well. Google Earth is your friend, if you want to see.
I don't need to see, I've been there many times
But the parking island (Tronchetto) is relatively new: it was man-made in the '60s, so it is not part of historical Venice...

You can also drive in Lido di Venezia, which is part of Venice...
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Old September 4th, 2010, 10:34 PM   #900
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Furka Pass 2.431 m

My first video from my vacation in Switzerland.

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