daily menu » rate the banner | guess the city | one on oneforums map | privacy policy | DMCA | news magazine | posting guidelines

Go Back   SkyscraperCity > Infrastructure and Mobility Forums > Highways & Autobahns

Highways & Autobahns All about automobility



Global Announcement

As a general reminder, please respect others and respect copyrights. Go here to familiarize yourself with our posting policy.


Reply

 
Thread Tools
Old October 20th, 2010, 09:37 PM   #981
Coccodrillo
Moderator
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Switzerland
Posts: 7,200
Likes (Received): 768

I don't want it Railways are always a better solution

(irritating Suburbanist-style reply, I may reply seriously later)
__________________
1.6.2016: Basistunnel!

für Güter die Bahn ~ pour vos marchandises le rail ~ chi dice merci dice ferrovia
Coccodrillo no está en línea   Reply With Quote

Sponsored Links
Old October 20th, 2010, 09:44 PM   #982
ChrisZwolle
Road user
 
ChrisZwolle's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Zwolle
Posts: 43,612
Likes (Received): 19400

Yes, let tourist wait 5 hours for a tunnel is a very good way to advertise for tourism

Anyway, I don't believe the railway tunnel will relieve the Gotthard Road Tunnel in any way. Truck traffic is already fairly low and people on holiday really do not shift to rail - otherwise the Lötschberg and Simplon tunnels would've been much more popular for people en-route to Italy.
ChrisZwolle no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old October 20th, 2010, 10:16 PM   #983
Suburbanist
on the road
 
Suburbanist's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: the rain capital of Europe
Posts: 27,536
Likes (Received): 21244

I think after the Gotthard Base Tunnel is completed and operational, and most trucks are diverted to rail, the Swiss will become more receptive for new road tunnels and vote for them in a new referendum.
__________________
YIMBY - Yes, in my backyard!
Suburbanist no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old October 20th, 2010, 10:36 PM   #984
Coccodrillo
Moderator
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Switzerland
Posts: 7,200
Likes (Received): 768

There are a lot of transport capacity bottlenecks in Switzerland and the Gotthard road tunnel is not the worse since queues are huge but do not happens every day and does not limit traffic, "only" slow down it. There are a lot of other railway and road bottlenecks where capacity problems are more problematic.

Transiting trucks are not as much as in the Netherlands but there they don't bring any benefit apart a tax (that is lower than the toll on Fréjus and Mont Blanc for trucks). And most of these trucks run for 500-800-1000 km so grouping them in trains is possible.

Anyway trains are still quite well used. Despite the deterioration of service since the Cisalpino era I took a Milan-Zürich train at 15.10: it was full, with a few people standing, so trains are still used despite the poor service (not very frequent and with constant delays). And since the opening of the new Lötschberg rail tunnel in december 2007 traffic increased by 30% in two years.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Suburbanist View Post
I think after the Gotthard Base Tunnel is completed and operational, and most trucks are diverted to rail, the Swiss will become more receptive for new road tunnels and vote for them in a new referendum.
I think the same, but such referendum would made sense only if it also proposes a way to finance it. If not nothing would change. As I said there are a lot of critical bottlenecks (both for rail and roads) with few if any chanches to be solved quickly today.
__________________
1.6.2016: Basistunnel!

für Güter die Bahn ~ pour vos marchandises le rail ~ chi dice merci dice ferrovia
Coccodrillo no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old October 20th, 2010, 10:51 PM   #985
ChrisZwolle
Road user
 
ChrisZwolle's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Zwolle
Posts: 43,612
Likes (Received): 19400

My list of Swiss projects (not currently U/C):

* 2nd tube Gotthard Tunnel
* widening A1 Genève - Lausanne to 2x3
* widening A1 Bern - Oftringen to 2x3
* construction of A4a between Baar and A3
* widening A8 Spiez - Interlaken to 2x2
* construction A13 - A14 (Austria) link
ChrisZwolle no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old October 20th, 2010, 11:09 PM   #986
Coccodrillo
Moderator
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Switzerland
Posts: 7,200
Likes (Received): 768

Point per point:

1) will not happen anytime soon, voters refused it in 1989, 1999 and 2003, forbidden by the 1994 vote (Initiative of the Alps) (see here)

2) Swiss voted against this project in 2003 (Avanti initiative), discussion of increasing rail capacity still pending (not funded)

3) Swiss voted against this project in 2003 (Avanti initiative), discussion of increasing rail capacity still pending (partly funded, but infrastructure construction is not plannet for very soon)

4) there were planned two tunnels, one for rail and one for road (single track the first, 1x2 the second), both abandoned

5) not even planned (the railway is obviously single track and near capacity limit)

6) I agree, but this will not happen anytime soon

The "Avanti" project is interesting, because it grouped in a single vote the projects covering most of the population (increase of capacity on the first three motorways you mentioned, plus some money for public transport), but it has been refused.

(it was not the first "Avanti" project to have been refused, but a modified version proposed by the government - citizens may propose nearly any sort of new alw or project, then the governement can suggest modifications to the initial proposition - so citizens in the end vote on the first proposition, on the modified one, or on both)
__________________
1.6.2016: Basistunnel!

für Güter die Bahn ~ pour vos marchandises le rail ~ chi dice merci dice ferrovia

Last edited by Coccodrillo; October 20th, 2010 at 11:16 PM.
Coccodrillo no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old October 20th, 2010, 11:11 PM   #987
Suissetralia
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 389
Likes (Received): 67

Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisZwolle View Post
My list of Swiss projects (not currently U/C):

* 2nd tube Gotthard Tunnel
* widening A1 Genève - Lausanne to 2x3
* widening A1 Bern - Oftringen to 2x3
* construction of A4a between Baar and A3
* widening A8 Spiez - Interlaken to 2x2
* construction A13 - A14 (Austria) link
The problem is that there are also many necessary rail infrastructures, and there's not even enough money to finance them, let alone roads, which should be last on priority unless there's a very particular problematic point. For instance, before widening A1 between Lausanne and Genève, something which is really relevant, I would first add the third rail track between both cities; that should have top importance, yet there's not even funds for that, partially because the Gotthard BT is consuming a lot federal resources.
Suissetralia no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old October 21st, 2010, 05:20 AM   #988
Suburbanist
on the road
 
Suburbanist's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: the rain capital of Europe
Posts: 27,536
Likes (Received): 21244

Rail and road improvements do not cater for the same user base. There is some overlapping, but usually the "common user base" of both rail and road arteries is not that large to the point you can think of investing in one to solve the needs of others.

Alpine passes are an geography oddity. Alps impose an otherwise artificial cut on capillarity and limit connectivity points to the passes (or tunnels for that matter) . This is not the case - for instance - in the Genève - Lausanne area, where you have a myriad of origin-destination vectors, some optimally served by rail, some optimally served by private car and some (usually not many) who can be reasonably served by both options or a combination of both depending on reasonable possible choices of increased capacity.

However, for most situations the best possible railway service cannot efficiently replace the need for extra highway lanes (and vice-versa) , if you are to keep the same housing, development, shopping and living patterns (doing otherwise is malicious communist social engineering).
__________________
YIMBY - Yes, in my backyard!
Suburbanist no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old October 21st, 2010, 10:18 AM   #989
Coccodrillo
Moderator
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Switzerland
Posts: 7,200
Likes (Received): 768

With big volumes of traffic rail is more efficient, so in the case of Genève-Lausanne and Bern-Zürich it should have priority. Also because there are already motorways, but the railway still has only the two tracks built in the XIX century.
__________________
1.6.2016: Basistunnel!

für Güter die Bahn ~ pour vos marchandises le rail ~ chi dice merci dice ferrovia
Coccodrillo no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old October 22nd, 2010, 08:01 PM   #990
ChrisZwolle
Road user
 
ChrisZwolle's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Zwolle
Posts: 43,612
Likes (Received): 19400

http://www.nzz.ch/nachrichten/wissen...1.8103246.html

The 11 km "miniautobahn" has been opened between Kleinandelfingen and Fluringen, providing faster and safer travel between Winterthur and Schaffhausen, northern Switzerland.
ChrisZwolle no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old October 22nd, 2010, 08:11 PM   #991
Verso
Islander
 
Verso's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Ljubljana
Posts: 22,087
Likes (Received): 4749

We want pics.
Verso no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old October 22nd, 2010, 08:44 PM   #992
ChrisZwolle
Road user
 
ChrisZwolle's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Zwolle
Posts: 43,612
Likes (Received): 19400

This is how it looked in June 2009

image hosted on flickr

IMG_4545 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

image hosted on flickr

IMG_4552 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

image hosted on flickr

IMG_4555 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr
ChrisZwolle no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old October 23rd, 2010, 04:44 PM   #993
ChrisZwolle
Road user
 
ChrisZwolle's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Zwolle
Posts: 43,612
Likes (Received): 19400

Probably the most awesome scenery I have ever captured on video....

__________________

my clinched highways / travel mapping • highway photography @ Flickr and Youtube

Zagor666 liked this post
ChrisZwolle no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old October 24th, 2010, 05:43 AM   #994
Verso
Islander
 
Verso's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Ljubljana
Posts: 22,087
Likes (Received): 4749

Awesome; too bad I never drove there. How did you find out about it?
Verso no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old October 24th, 2010, 04:54 PM   #995
hofburg
middle lane hogger
 
hofburg's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Nova Gorica
Posts: 3,270
Likes (Received): 464

from valley of Rhone, 600m altitude to 2200m.
great view, but too bad the lake is artificial.
hofburg no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old October 24th, 2010, 08:12 PM   #996
Coccodrillo
Moderator
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Switzerland
Posts: 7,200
Likes (Received): 768

Some informations about motorways around Uri canton: http://www.afbn.ch/ ==> Das Gebiet
__________________
1.6.2016: Basistunnel!

für Güter die Bahn ~ pour vos marchandises le rail ~ chi dice merci dice ferrovia
Coccodrillo no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old October 24th, 2010, 09:05 PM   #997
lpioe
Registered User
 
lpioe's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 2,141
Likes (Received): 18

Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisZwolle View Post
Probably the most awesome scenery I have ever captured on video....
Beautiful.
How do you find out about these places? I'm from Switzerland and have never heard about Lac de Moiry or Fafleralp.
I bought a motorcycle last week and definately want to check out all these "hidden gems" next spring / summer
__________________




3ds Max Script to create stadium stands for given c-values


my stadium designs (all WIP / unfinished...)

1 - 2 - 3 - 4

lpioe no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old October 24th, 2010, 09:39 PM   #998
ChrisZwolle
Road user
 
ChrisZwolle's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Zwolle
Posts: 43,612
Likes (Received): 19400

Well, these points are not really well-known. Sure, locals know it, but the most you will see from Lac de Moiry is a small sign in Grimentz that points to the barrage or lac (not sure) de Moiry. If you don't know how it looks, you probably won't visit it.

I scout these areas beforehand with Google Earth.
ChrisZwolle no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old October 24th, 2010, 10:55 PM   #999
vatse
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Tartu
Posts: 820
Likes (Received): 729

A9 between Villeneuve and Vevey

Start of the climb from Villeneuve up to the mountain side
image hosted on flickr

IMG_6658 by vatse, on Flickr

image hosted on flickr

IMG_6660 by vatse, on Flickr

image hosted on flickr

IMG_6661 by vatse, on Flickr

The road is built on the side of Alps rising directly from Lake Geneva
image hosted on flickr

IMG_6662 by vatse, on Flickr

image hosted on flickr

IMG_6663 by vatse, on Flickr

Montreux at the background, Castle of Chillon is situated just below the road on lake
image hosted on flickr

IMG_6665 by vatse, on Flickr

image hosted on flickr

IMG_6666 by vatse, on Flickr

image hosted on flickr

IMG_6667 by vatse, on Flickr

image hosted on flickr

IMG_6669 by vatse, on Flickr

image hosted on flickr

IMG_6670 by vatse, on Flickr

image hosted on flickr

IMG_6673 by vatse, on Flickr

image hosted on flickr

IMG_6674 by vatse, on Flickr

At the background you can see Jura Mountains situated some 35-40 km from here
image hosted on flickr

IMG_6675 by vatse, on Flickr

image hosted on flickr

IMG_6677 by vatse, on Flickr

image hosted on flickr

IMG_6678 by vatse, on Flickr

image hosted on flickr

IMG_6679 by vatse, on Flickr

image hosted on flickr

IMG_6680 by vatse, on Flickr

Junction of A9 and A12 with exit to Vevey
image hosted on flickr

IMG_6681 by vatse, on Flickr

image hosted on flickr

IMG_6682 by vatse, on Flickr

image hosted on flickr

IMG_6683 by vatse, on Flickr

image hosted on flickr

IMG_6684 by vatse, on Flickr

image hosted on flickr

IMG_6685 by vatse, on Flickr
vatse no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old October 24th, 2010, 11:12 PM   #1000
vatse
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Tartu
Posts: 820
Likes (Received): 729

A12 from Vevey to Bern

There is steep climb up from A9
image hosted on flickr

IMG_6686 by vatse, on Flickr

image hosted on flickr

IMG_6687 by vatse, on Flickr

image hosted on flickr

IMG_6688 by vatse, on Flickr

image hosted on flickr

IMG_6689 by vatse, on Flickr

Watershed between Rhine and Rhone and between Nord Sea and Mediterranean Sea
image hosted on flickr

IMG_6690 by vatse, on Flickr

image hosted on flickr

IMG_6691 by vatse, on Flickr

image hosted on flickr

IMG_6692 by vatse, on Flickr

image hosted on flickr

IMG_6694 by vatse, on Flickr

Reservoir of Gruyere
image hosted on flickr

IMG_6695 by vatse, on Flickr

image hosted on flickr

IMG_6697 by vatse, on Flickr

image hosted on flickr

IMG_6699 by vatse, on Flickr

image hosted on flickr

IMG_6700 by vatse, on Flickr

image hosted on flickr

IMG_6701 by vatse, on Flickr

image hosted on flickr

IMG_6702 by vatse, on Flickr

image hosted on flickr

IMG_6703 by vatse, on Flickr

image hosted on flickr

IMG_6704 by vatse, on Flickr

image hosted on flickr

IMG_6705 by vatse, on Flickr

image hosted on flickr

IMG_6706 by vatse, on Flickr
vatse no está en línea   Reply With Quote


Reply

Tags
schweiz

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Related topics on SkyscraperCity


All times are GMT +2. The time now is 07:21 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11 Beta 4
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
Feedback Buttons provided by Advanced Post Thanks / Like (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2018 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.

vBulletin Optimisation provided by vB Optimise (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2018 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.

SkyscraperCity ☆ In Urbanity We trust ☆ about us | privacy policy | DMCA policy

tech management by Sysprosium