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Old December 11th, 2010, 08:54 PM   #1081
rower2000
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thun View Post
@ Chris: If I remember correctly, in the early planning stage there were plans to build a Autobahndreieck in the middle of Zurich itself, i. e. let run A1 right through the centre and connect it with a Autobahn on the Western side of Lake Zurich there (A3 on a bridgo over the Sihl further in direction of Hauptbahnhof).
I'm not sure about this, though. It was quite a long tima ago that I heard about something like that.
You are right. The original plan was to continue A1L at the end of Milchbucktunnel, construct an interchange at Platzspitz (the mouth of Sihl at Limmat near the main station). A1 would have continued on Sihlquai, the Southern side of Limmat, to Hardturm where it would have ended on today's A1H. The A3W branch would have continued as an elevated road over the bed of Sihl river to the main station, a bridge would have been built over the main railway station and A3 would have ended at the aforementioned interchange at Platzspitz. The whole project was called the "motorway Y". About like this:
image hosted on flickr


Wallisellen/Dübendorf exit is actually just a high-volume exit, thus it's very generously constructed. But in peak times in the morning and evening rush-hour it is needed (I take it every day). Brüttiseller Kreuz is built the way it is because A53 was originally planned to continue to Zurich airport rather than Zürich Nord intersection. Zurich airport exit on A51 is actually on the left side of the motorway because it was originally planned as part of an Autobahnkreuz there.

The Stadttunnel project Chris linked in his post is a newer project, designed to fulfill the role originally planned for the motorway Y in a way better compatible to city planning, not cutting the whole city in two by constructing an above-earth motorway, partly elevated, right through the center. Further information can be found here, unfortunately in German only.
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Old December 12th, 2010, 11:58 PM   #1082
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Some pictures of the Lucomagno-Lukmanier road: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lukmanier_Pass

This pass was once the most important in the region, being lower and easier than the others (the St. Gotthard was for a long time been difficult because of the Schöllen gorge with vertical walls and no space for a road (that's why it hosts the Urnerloch, one of the oldest road tunnels). It lost its importance when the Gotthard railway opened in 1882, which has been chosen instead of a railway under the Lucomagno pass. Along the years things changed, and a railways is under construction under this pass: the Gotthard Base Tunnel lies some 2 km west and 1,5 km below the road, near Sontga Maria lake. The name dervies probably from the Latin "lucus magnus" (big wood) or "locus magnus" (big place or spacious place). The road is kept opeend the whole year (but it isn't always possible...), traffic varies from around 150 vehicles per day in winter to 1500 in summer.

On the northern side it begins with a few short natural tunnels (as opposed to "artificial", that is, snow shelters).



The road crosses some small villages...

http://img408.imageshack.us/img408/4276/dsc06132wx.jpg[/img]

...and pass through several artificial tunnels or snow shelters opened on one side.

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Old December 12th, 2010, 11:58 PM   #1083
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Another snow shelter, or maybe a guide for avalanches. Note the concrete pavement.





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Old December 12th, 2010, 11:59 PM   #1084
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Lai da Sontga Maria, one of the endless artificial lakes.



Another snow shelter, I suppose these are doors, being closed on winter.



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Old December 12th, 2010, 11:59 PM   #1085
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Some traffic here, but just because the truck ahead had been stopped for a while to discharge a herd of cows blocking the road. Outside a few local traffic and some buses there is no heavy traffic there.



Another photo taken on the southern ramp.



Photos taken in June 2009.
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Old December 13th, 2010, 12:09 AM   #1086
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Nice. I've never been there, but I've read the summit has a lot of power lines across it, which would make it less scenic than other passes.
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Old December 13th, 2010, 12:53 AM   #1087
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Yes, there are some power lines.

===========

This website contains the well made maps of the government, that show also details like the water tunnels (at 1 : 20.000 scale): http://map.geo.admin.ch/
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Old December 17th, 2010, 11:06 PM   #1088
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The report about the clousure of the Gotthard Tunnel has been published (Only in the antional languages). I haven't fully read it, but I can already post some informations.

The ceiling will be raised and the ventilation upgraded.

There are two preferred variants and a number of others.

1) 2,5 years of total clousure for 650 millions CHF

2) 280 days of clousure (mid September to mid June) for 3,5 years for 752 millions CHF

3) 5 months of clousure over 7 years

4) 7 months of clousure over 5 years

Before the clousure the pass road will be lightly upgraded and the shuttle train reactivated. Heavy renovation could be postponed to 2035, but in this case a light renovation would have to be done for 250 millions CHF (50 days of clousure in spring and 90 in autumn).

A second tunnel is officially estimated at 2 billions CHF and would be financed from a different fund than the one for road widenings (in other words, it is not directly concurrent to these).

Annual traffic (in 2009):

Fréjus Tunnel: 1.600.000 vehicles
Mont Blanc Tunnel: 1.800.000 vehicles
Great St Bernard Tunnel: 600.000 vehicles
Simplon Pass: 850.000 vehicles
Gotthard Tunnel: 6.200.000 vehicles
Gotthard Pass: 650.000 vehicles
San Bernardino Tunnel: 2.400.000 vehicles
Brenner Pass: 9.000.000 vehicles (but more trucks than the Gotthard, also in proportion)

ASTRA website: http://www.astra.admin.ch/dokumentat...t&msg-id=36850 (clic on the top right corner for the French or German version)
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Old December 17th, 2010, 11:10 PM   #1089
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There is already a car / truck shuttle through the Lötschberg - Simplon tunnels, right? Why don't people use that one for through traffic?

Brenner Pass remains the easiest way to cross the Alps... No major tunnels, 4 to 6 lanes and low traffic volumes outside peak days. The Brennersee permanent counting station has 23,000 vehicles per day on average.
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Old December 17th, 2010, 11:30 PM   #1090
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisZwolle View Post
There is already a car / truck shuttle through the Lötschberg - Simplon tunnels, right?
There are three services, Lötschberg (at least every 30 minutes, up to every 7 on peak times), Simplon (every 90 minutes, with plans to increase to every 60) and a service combining both (Kandersteg-Iselle, up tp around 10 departures a day, but only on peak days). These services support themselves their running costs, so BLS and SBB operates them only when they are profitable.
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Old December 17th, 2010, 11:33 PM   #1091
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Is the Simplon Pass kept open during winter? The pass isn't that hard for trucks, although the downhill to Italy is narrower than uphill from Brig. I noticed many SK / H / RO trucks used the pass. The adjoining infrastructure in Italy is pretty good. I think they rather pay some SVA than having to pay the € 250 + tolls for the Mont Blanc or Fréjus Tunnels.
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Old December 17th, 2010, 11:49 PM   #1092
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Yes, the Simplon Pass is always opened. It is used a lot by trucks with dangerous goods as it doens't have the limiations for them like the long tunnels like having to run with escort and without other traffic (the Great St Bernard Tunnel is completely forbidden to dangerous goods).
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Old December 17th, 2010, 11:54 PM   #1093
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For those that aren't aware. Federal Council announced today that there will be no second Gotthard tunnel built. There has been pressure mounting from certain cantons (Valais, Graubünden, Ticino mostly) for a second tunnel to be built before the tunnel is closed for essential work. The tunnel is due to closed for up to 900 days for refurbishment, with no real alternative route proposed.

http://www.swissinfo.ch/fre/politiqu...l?cid=29054906

http://www.tsr.ch/info/suisse/280557...pas-utile.html
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Old December 18th, 2010, 01:40 AM   #1094
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LukeWilliamson View Post
For those that aren't aware. Federal Council announced today that there will be no second Gotthard tunnel built. There has been pressure mounting from certain cantons (Valais, Graubünden, Ticino mostly) for a second tunnel to be built before the tunnel is closed for essential work. The tunnel is due to closed for up to 900 days for refurbishment, with no real alternative route proposed.

http://www.swissinfo.ch/fre/politiqu...l?cid=29054906

http://www.tsr.ch/info/suisse/280557...pas-utile.html
Up to 900 days for refurbishment??! They should be able to build a new tunnel in that time surely?
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Old December 18th, 2010, 01:41 AM   #1095
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Tauern Tunnel second tube took 3 years, but is much shorter (still 6.5 km though). The renovation of one tube takes at least 1 year, 900 days for renovation only seems to be very long.
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Old December 18th, 2010, 02:18 AM   #1096
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The refurbishment will include:
- raising of the ceiling (replacement of the existing celing, which has signs of wearing)
- upgrading of the ventilation system
- upgrading of the waste water treatement
- the slope of the carriageway will be increased from 2 to 2.5%
- widening of the shoulders for pedestrians
- new and widened service bays (for broken vehicles, etc), now they are every 750 m southbound and every 1500 m northbound, I suppose there will be one every 750 m in both directions
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Last edited by Coccodrillo; December 18th, 2010 at 02:45 AM.
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Old December 18th, 2010, 02:28 AM   #1097
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Are considered transalpine routes the four main passes:
- Great Saint Bernard (Sembrancher-Tunnel)
- Simplon (Brig-Gondo-Border)
- Gotthard (Amsteg-Bellinzona)
- San Bernardino (Thusis-Bellinzona)

Beside capacity increase of existing roads with the addition of new lanes, it is forbidden (art.3, nr 2a) the construction of roads that help or complete existing roads. I don't understand if a new road outside the four mentioned above is possible or not...I suppose not.

Text: http://www.admin.ch/ch/d/sr/c725_14.html
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Old December 18th, 2010, 03:22 AM   #1098
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Coccodrillo View Post
I don't understand if a new road outside the four mentioned above is possible or not...I suppose not.

Text: http://www.admin.ch/ch/d/sr/c725_14.html
Following the french version, there is really no margin to doubt about it:

Quote:
La capacité des routes de transit ne peut être augmentée. Par augmentation de la capacité des routes de transit, on entend notamment: la construction de nouvelles routes qui, de par leur fonction, déchargent ou complètent les routes existantes; l'élargissement de routes par des voies supplémentaires.
i.e. building new roads which would attract existing traffic from the four defined transalpine routes is considered an increase in capacity, and so is considered the addition of more lanes to existing roads. A new tunnel would fall under the latter definition so it's clearly forbidden to build it. But renovation works are clearly allowed:

Quote:
La transformation de routes existantes dans le but premier d'entretenir et de renouveler les routes et d'améliorer la sécurité du trafic, n'est pas considérée comme une mesure visant une augmentation de la capacité
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Old December 18th, 2010, 09:43 PM   #1099
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That's just crazy! They should build a second tube, and end of story.
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Old December 18th, 2010, 09:50 PM   #1100
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Maybe they will change opinion about this European-most-stupid transportation law in first place (the one forbidding "capacity increasing").
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