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Old July 12th, 2008, 06:54 PM   #101
Jeroen669
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15.000 vehicles a day is still not that low for a 2-lane tunnel. Especially not considering traffic safety, which is much worse than in a tunnel with a second tube.
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Old July 12th, 2008, 08:25 PM   #102
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^ Indeed; I don't like driving through this tunnel.
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Old July 12th, 2008, 08:41 PM   #103
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chriszwolle View Post
Only 15.000 vehicles use the Gotthardtunnel on an average daily base. How many of that are trucks? 5.000 - 10.000 would already be very much. That's nothing for such an important transportation axe.
3.200 trucks/day or 950.000 trucks/year.

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Originally Posted by Chriszwolle View Post
The Swiss have to accept the fact that transport is growing throughout Europe, also in Switzerland, which has the position as a very important transitcountry.
That's why Switzerland is building a new railroad (and a half).

Plans are to limit trucks throught the four Swiss passes/tunnels to 650.000 a year, of which about 450.000 throught the Gotthard.

The old Gotthard rail tunnel could then be used by shuttle trains carrying private cars on peak periods.

The second tube of the road tunnel has been rejected a few years ago by a referendum, and by referendum, too, construction of the new railway tunnel has been approved.

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Don't the Swiss use it in summer too?
I take the train
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Last edited by Coccodrillo; July 12th, 2008 at 08:47 PM.
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Old July 12th, 2008, 08:46 PM   #104
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3.200 trucks is nothing. Major transportation axes in Belgium, the Netherlands and Germany carry up to and over 20.000 trucks per day. I really don't think Switzerland wants not only to reduce the amount of trucks, but also gets the growth of trucks onto trains.

Besides the truck issue, the major traffic jams on summer weekends are due to cars, and there are too many to handle with trains. Outside these peak periodes, traffic safety should be concern #1 to construct a 2nd tube.
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Old July 12th, 2008, 09:10 PM   #105
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Construction of new transalpine roads is forbidden by the constitution. To build a second tube another referendum would be necessary, and it is not sure it would be approved.

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Well 25€ for one year is really cheap. The problem is that you can't buy a sticker for a week or 10 days like for example in Austria. Even if you only cross Switzerland on your way to Italy you have to pay for a whole year.
25 euros is about the price of a single passage throught the two French/Italian tunnels, where you have to pay for the motorway separately.

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Anyway if you don't want to drive on Simplon pass (often closed in winther) there is a shuttle train wich carries vehicles between Brig (CH) and Iselle de Trasquera (I -despite the name) by a train tunnel built about 100 years ago (the longest train tunnel till they open the Gothard base tunnel)
Lovely experience I suggest you

Many years since last time I've been there, but I don't remember Domodossola-Simplon expressway that bad... surely it is an old expressway, while Domodossola-Sesto Calende highway (on Western coast of Lago Maggiore) is quite new and good for sure
The Simplon Tunnel has been the longest from the opening in 1906 until 1982. Now there are 8 longer tunnels in use and 5 under construction.

A new expressway is under construction between the Italian A26 and the border.

Shuttle trains are used to pass the Lötschberg, that has no road at all.
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Old July 12th, 2008, 09:13 PM   #106
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Quote:
Construction of new transalpine roads is forbidden by the constitution. To build a second tube another referendum would be necessary, and it is not sure it would be approved.
Well, first, this it not a "new" road. It's the improvement of an existing road. Second of all, I don't think making a referendum on everything is really a solution, however, that's another topic.
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Old July 12th, 2008, 09:19 PM   #107
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The constitution forbids not only new roads but also increasing capacity on existing ones.

Some referendum, mainly locals, in Switzerland are useless, I agree. But this one would be necessary, anyway.
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Old July 12th, 2008, 09:24 PM   #108
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The problem with those rail projects is that their revenues/passengers/tonnages are usually grossly overestimated.

here's an interesting study about inaccuracy in planning forecasts.

If you read the whole PDF, you'll see nearly all railprojects are overestimated, and road projects are underestimated in usage. The problem with such huge rail projects is that they cost huge amounts of money, and they have to make high usage projections in order to justify the construction costs.
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Old July 12th, 2008, 09:39 PM   #109
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The Gotthard railway has today 50% more goods traffic than the other transalpine railways.

As for passengers, there will be at least a train every 30 minutes at peaks, and more during holydays.

Some old statistics, rail passengers in 1979, in millions:
Fréjus: 1,5
Simplon-Lötschberg: 3
Gotthard: 7
Brenner: 2,5
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Old July 12th, 2008, 10:14 PM   #110
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Coccodrillo View Post
A new expressway is under construction between the Italian A26 and the border.
A completely new expressway, or the existing one just being repaved? This seems enough to me.
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Old July 12th, 2008, 10:22 PM   #111
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The existing one (one lane per direction) is being extended until the border. Until last year you had to go throught the villages, now the expressway avoid them on bridges.
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Old July 12th, 2008, 10:24 PM   #112
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If roads would be build according to summer weekends traffic, then all motorways in south Europe need to be widened to 3+3 or more lanes. But you just can't do that.
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Old July 12th, 2008, 10:30 PM   #113
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Ofcourse not, but there is a whole theater of options between a one lane tunnel with blockabfertigung and a 6 lane freeway.

The problem is that in my opinion, 2 - 4 hour delays at a tunnel is unacceptable. You don't even loose that much time on the Autoroute du Soleil over 200 kilometers on a black saturday. I think a 2x2 Gotthardtunnel can do the job, the other motorways in Switzerland can handle the holiday traffic with 2x2 lanes too without having massive delays.

Traffic jams on weekends in holidays will always exist, and I don't advocate to eliminate them all, but c'mon 3 - 4 hours waiting is just ridiculous. Same thing happened in Austria, it takes you half the day to travel from Salzburg to Villach. Katschbergtunnel also had blockabfertigung and multiple hours delays, besides the 4 hrs delay at the Tauerntunnel.
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Old July 12th, 2008, 10:32 PM   #114
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Coccodrillo View Post
The existing one (one lane per direction) is being extended until the border. Until last year you had to go throught the villages, now the expressway avoid them on bridges.
I don't quite understand. You're saying that the existing road (one lane per direction) is being extended (widened/twinned/doubled, I suppose), but that there's also a new expressway? Or that a one-lane-per-direction expressway was built last year, and is now being doubled? What's the pavement of the old "expressway" between Domodossola and A26 like? Has it been repaved, or it's still catastrophic?
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Old July 12th, 2008, 10:48 PM   #115
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Sorry!

There was a gap of a few km near the border, without expressway, and traffic used the old route throught the villages.

Now the expressway has been prolonged until the border (still one lane per direction), and traffic doesn't run anymore throught the villages.

I don't remember how was the pavement.
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Old July 12th, 2008, 11:38 PM   #116
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^ Thanks, now it's clear. Good news.
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Old July 13th, 2008, 01:22 AM   #117
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To the Gotthard problem:

The general problem is that every increase in capacity of a road creates more traffic. What would be acceptable elsewhere is much more problematic in a narrow valley (noise, polution, etc.). Therefore, trying to get as much traffic as possible from road to rail is a good alternative in my opinion. Sure, lots of cars are still there, but with high speed links from Milan to Zurich and Bern, it should be a attractive alternative e. g. for businessmen, etc.
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Old July 13th, 2008, 02:05 AM   #118
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You'd actually do a favor to the nature with construction of a second tube.
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Old July 13th, 2008, 02:34 AM   #119
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When will it be finished?
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Old July 13th, 2008, 10:53 AM   #120
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I think it's a much greater favour to put at least most of the trucks on trains in Luzern and take them of in Bellinzona. By far.
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