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Old November 24th, 2011, 08:04 PM   #1461
Coccodrillo
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A16, section Boncourt-Bure:



http://www.a16.ch/20111111/20111111_...-PJB111994.htm



http://www.a16.ch/20111111/20111111_...-PJB111995.htm

PDF document (in French) with other pictures: http://www.a16.ch/20111111/A16_2011_...2A_sansPub.pdf
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Old November 24th, 2011, 08:06 PM   #1462
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Then there would be no need to use a truck, if there were alternatives...
Even though you might think otherwise, there are just no realistic alternatives. Even with the 250CHF per single trip we contribute to the swiss economy, it's still the cheapest way to get the goods through the alpes within reasonable time limits.
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Old November 24th, 2011, 09:01 PM   #1463
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Then there would be no need to use a truck, if there were alternatives...
The economics of transport just don't work like that. If you are transporting a key component to a factory in Italy, you can't put your container in a Rhine barge, than transpose it rail in Manheim and then transship it again in Novara.

Also, the just-in-time paradigm by which most industries operate means an extremely high penalty (in terms of disruption and, indirectly, financial) is placed on having stock idling on warehouses or in movement. Volumes are as small as possible and thus trucks are more efficient on that.

You know, we don't manufacture things like it were 1920 anymore... It's the era of lean manufacturing that puts trains at big disadvantage.
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Old November 24th, 2011, 09:35 PM   #1464
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But if there were more fast and frequent shuttle services like Köln-Novara for 4m semitrailers and high containers there would be less need to tow them one by one with a road vehicle. Railways already do that quite well despite their old infrastructure built in the XIX century (while road has got thousand of km of motorways).
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Old November 24th, 2011, 09:36 PM   #1465
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Agreed. But then the Swiss don't like RO-RO trains, and are even weary of piggyback trains because of the "non-cargo weight they have to transport" if carrying trailers and tractor units.
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Old November 24th, 2011, 09:55 PM   #1466
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I'm not thinking of RoRo trains, but trains carrying only semitrailers, swap bodies and containers. Here the bottleneck is in Italy and Germany, so one of the ideas is to build a terminal just north of the border in Chiasso. The problem would then be in Germany (congested railways, mostly still with two tracks only, compared to the 4-6-8 lanes on motorways...).
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Old November 24th, 2011, 10:21 PM   #1467
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Why are the Swiss centralizing the network in the central government?
The national roads law was created in 1960, defining a network of streets that are built and maintained by the federal government. Till 1996 those roads/motorways had "N" prefixes to their numbers.
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Old November 24th, 2011, 11:02 PM   #1468
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeroen669 View Post
Even though you might think otherwise, there are just no realistic alternatives. Even with the 250CHF per single trip we contribute to the swiss economy, it's still the cheapest way to get the goods through the alpes within reasonable time limits.
Well yes, but you also produce losses. Infrastructure needs to be upgraded to fit you and others who transport goods across the country from and to other countries without switzerland having anything to do with that, and on the other hand trucks are the vehicles that degrade the most the roads so you also force the authorities to spend more money on maintenance. Maybe 250 francs is no that much after all.
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Old November 25th, 2011, 10:59 AM   #1469
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The national roads law was created in 1960, defining a network of streets that are built and maintained by the federal government. Till 1996 those roads/motorways had "N" prefixes to their numbers.
The national roads (most motorways, most autostrassen, maybe a few roads) of the 1960 plan have been financed mainly by the federal government (87% on average), but were owned and maintained by the cantons. Since 1st January 2008 they are owned and maintained to the Confederation.

See http://www.astra.admin.ch/00638/inde...t&msg-id=16497 (DE-FR-IT)
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Old November 25th, 2011, 01:30 PM   #1470
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A16 around Moutier opened today. Just 2 kilometers, but important anyway.

Here's a construction photo of the tunnel Moutier.
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Old November 25th, 2011, 01:33 PM   #1471
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The ~4 km section Moutier Nord-Choindez opened a few years ago, but it has been quite useless until today.
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Old November 26th, 2011, 12:48 AM   #1472
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I actualised the new section of A16 on Openstreetmap.
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Old November 26th, 2011, 10:17 AM   #1473
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Quote:
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But if there were more fast and frequent shuttle services like Köln-Novara for 4m semitrailers and high containers there would be less need to tow them one by one with a road vehicle. Railways already do that quite well despite their old infrastructure built in the XIX century (while road has got thousand of km of motorways).
Of course more train services would be technicly possible, IF there would be enough demand for it. You're neglecting the simple fact that there's just no money and time (which eventually is also money) for these things. Why do you think it's profitable to transport certain goods (like flowers or packets) by plane?

Sea containers are already a perfect method of transferring goods on trains and ships but there's just a limited amount of goods which are feasible for that. Anyway, I'm repeating myself.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vaud
Well yes, but you also produce losses. Infrastructure needs to be upgraded to fit you and others who transport goods across the country from and to other countries without switzerland having anything to do with that, and on the other hand trucks are the vehicles that degrade the most the roads so you also force the authorities to spend more money on maintenance. Maybe 250 francs is no that much after all.
I totally agree that trucks should pay more tolls since they damage the roads more than cars do. However, the current rates are just insane compared to surrounding countries. And for the money you pay, you'd rather expect at least to be able to drive through quickly, instead of being clogged up for nothing every 50 kms.

The fact that Switzerland carries quite some transit traffic (well, in percentage terms) doesn't change that. Switzerland is just coincidentally geographicly positioned between a few bigger countries that just need transportation. With or without Switzerland.
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Old November 26th, 2011, 10:19 AM   #1474
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Sometimes, the behavior of the Swiss road authority is akin, in a much larger scale, to medial fiefdom lords who, having set up a castle in a river gorge, started charging hefty tolls for anyone passing there.

Now, they feel entitled to get traffic off their routes by merely being situated in the Alps. Not that the Austrians are much better, at lease those in Tyrol.

In an era of free commerce, people living in valleys don't have the right to want all benefits of World/European commerce while keeping the small nuisances of traffic and a bit of pollution over somebody else's territory.

Switzerland is landlocked... now imagine if Italians, French, Germans and Austrians decided to restrict the flow of stuff to Switzerland because they felt the Po River plains, or the Rhine valley, or the Jura moutains, should not bear the consequences of traffic from ocean ports to Switzerland... unacceptable!
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Old November 26th, 2011, 11:17 AM   #1475
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Why do you think it's profitable to transport certain goods (like flowers or packets) by plane?
Perishable or express goods by plane or by truck are ok...others are not. Maybe the 650.000 limit is too low and can be discussed but I would like to see, at least, some investment also for overcrowded railways from Italy and Germany. A fifth and sixth lane on Italian A9 are ok but I would like to see also a second track on the Lake Maggiore branch of the Gotthard railway...

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However, the current rates are just insane compared to surrounding countries.
No, they are comparable (for transit and for similar distances, that is, around 300 km) to the Mont Blanc and Fréjus tunnels. The Brenner tolls are, on the other hand, much lower.
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Old November 26th, 2011, 11:20 AM   #1476
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The Brenner tolls are, on the other hand, much lower.
No tunnels on the Brenner and a crappy Fussen or Gramisch-Innsbruck connection.
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Old November 26th, 2011, 11:29 AM   #1477
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So you are saying that the tolls for the three western tunnels are correct...
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Old November 26th, 2011, 12:03 PM   #1478
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No, they are comparable (for transit and for similar distances, that is, around 300 km) to the Mont Blanc and Fréjus tunnels. The Brenner tolls are, on the other hand, much lower.
No, the general rates are not comparable with other countries. Germany for instance is just about €0,12/km while swiss rate is about 6 times that and even Austrian rates are just about half of the Swiss. I know Mont Blanc and Fréjus are ridicously expensive as well, though I understand they're not waiting for a large movement of alpine transit truck traffic who are trying to avoid Switzerland. The difference is that in Switserland you pay for all kms and not just certain corridors.
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Old November 26th, 2011, 12:11 PM   #1479
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The difference is that in Switzerland you pay for all kms and not just certain corridors.
Yes but for transit this doesn't matter.
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Old November 26th, 2011, 02:48 PM   #1480
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I have no problem with reasonable tolls. I don't even think Swiss truck tolls are all that unreasonable. My angry is with the arbitrary 650.000 truck crossings limit, with the refusal to build a 2nd Gotthard bore even if EU chimed in with money just to avoid more traffic, refusal to upgrade A16 to 2x2 all the way Belinzona-Chur-Brengez etc.

With proper investments, and some further widening on the Italian side, a huge Y Basel/Brengez (Chur) - Italy could be devised, taking not 650.000, but easily 2.000.000/trucks year.
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