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Old December 20th, 2011, 04:47 PM   #1501
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Coccodrillo View Post
They should put an high toll on foreign cars and trucks instead. Then they should sell passing rights in advance, with extremely high tolls on summer weekends (say 80-90 € per car) and lower on winter weekdays (but not lower than 40 € per trip).
As a matter of fact I think the most important Swiss railway lines should reduce to 1 train an hour with 2 carriages, then sell passing rights in advance, with extremely high fees to keep the train uncrowded (say 80 - 90 € per passenger).
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Old December 20th, 2011, 05:20 PM   #1502
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Coccodrillo View Post
They should put an high toll on foreign cars and trucks instead. Then they should sell passing rights in advance, with extremely high tolls on summer weekends (say 80-90 € per car) and lower on winter weekdays (but not lower than 40 € per trip).
I can't take this statement seriously.

Should Germany, Italy, Austria and France restore borders and charge similar amounts for drivers crossing, say, from St. Gallen to Brengez?
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Old December 20th, 2011, 06:05 PM   #1503
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What's wrong with high tolls? Reduced availability of a particular product, high prices. Free market, you know.
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Old December 20th, 2011, 06:12 PM   #1504
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You can also create reduced availability on your own and then demand for high tolls. That's what politicians for example in Bern try to do...
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Old December 20th, 2011, 06:21 PM   #1505
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The trucks pay enough tolls to build a new Gotthard Tunnel every 3 years.
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Old December 20th, 2011, 07:41 PM   #1506
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Originally Posted by Coccodrillo View Post
What's wrong with high tolls? Reduced availability of a particular product, high prices. Free market, you know.
There is nothing wrong with tolls as long as they are tolls, not mere taxes going into the general government purse.

I'm all for tolls, provided:

(1) vehicles of equal size/weight/emission profile are charged the same way, regardless of where the owner lives, whether the car is national or foreign etc.

(2) the tolls are used to finance bonds, construction funds, operational costs and security/rescue services in the highway, and nothing else outside the highway where they are collected

(3) any tax levied on tolls is limited to general taxes of the country, like VAT

(4) if a road start getting congested and tolls are raised to curb congestion, excess funds are used for highway expansion only, never, ever for public transportation.


Your idea is not free market. Free market would dictate a new tolled bore since the late 1990s under the Gotthard massif. You want to artificially reduce the availability of road space out of bigotry, and because you are getting a new railway you want to fill with passengers. There is nothing "free" on that market.

I do not oppose the high tolls charged on Mont Blanc or Fréjus tunnels, but they don't make distinction between people travelling from Modane to Bardonecchia or Toulouse to Wien, for instance. And Italian, French, Portuguese, Icelandic, Norwegian cars pays all the same regardless. That toll is high, but fair. The privileges the Swiss give to Ticino-bound traffic, for instance, are highly unfair.
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Old December 20th, 2011, 08:27 PM   #1507
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(1) like today in Switzerland (there is no plan to chaneg that, nor is possible with the EU)

(2-3-4) taxes go where money is needed, not to the source of the tax

(5) the Swiss truck tax is the same for everybody (following weight and Euro class), trucks in internal traffic don't have to wait to pass the tunnels, but they pay the same tex of the others (import-export Swiss trucks have to wait, like Ticino/Graübunden to germany or Northern Switzerland to Italy)
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Old December 20th, 2011, 08:33 PM   #1508
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If the Swiss transportation system was a free market and everyone would get what they're paying for, the public transport system would be largely shut down and all motorways widened to 8 lanes.
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Old December 20th, 2011, 08:52 PM   #1509
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Hopefully, they will change their mind and opt for a new 2-lane tunnel, even with truck traffic restricted, which shouldn't cost more than CHF 3,1B
I have absolutely anything against Ticinese, but I think they've had already their fair share of infrastructure expenditure with the GBT.

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If the Swiss transportation system was a free market and everyone would get what they're paying for, the public transport system would be largely shut down and all motorways widened to 8 lanes.
The idea of public transportation is that it generates more social revenues than monetary costs. Sure, the public sector has to pour millions into the system, but in doing so it saves the money required to expand all motorways and streets in the country, it saves traffic congestions that generate losses, it allows students who couldn't afford a car to pursue their studies independently on the money their parents have etc etc

Free market does not work, and that's something we've learned already with 29's crack. The state has to regulate and intervene in the economy to look after the profit maximization for the society it serves for, for example by administering himself the natural monopolies.
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Old December 21st, 2011, 11:17 AM   #1510
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I have absolutely anything against Ticinese, but I think they've had already their fair share of infrastructure expenditure with the GBT.
Together with that it makes the second tunnel unlikely (but possible).
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Old December 21st, 2011, 11:39 AM   #1511
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Der Bund schützt das Alpengebiet vor den negativen Auswirkungen des Transitverkehrs. Er begrenzt die Belastungen durch den Transitverkehr auf ein Mass, das für Menschen, Tiere und Pflanzen sowie ihre Lebensräume nicht schädlich ist.
How environmental friendly is it, when cars and trucks are standing hours and hours in front of the Gotthard tunnel? Stop and go produces much more pollution than the flowing traffic.
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Old December 21st, 2011, 11:48 AM   #1512
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That's true, but that's the law.

Dura lex, sed lex...
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Old December 21st, 2011, 01:31 PM   #1513
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How environmental friendly is it, when cars and trucks are standing hours and hours in front of the Gotthard tunnel? Stop and go produces much more pollution than the flowing traffic.
The idea is to get part of that merchandise onto trains when the GBT opens, so these bottlenecks should be temporary.
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Old December 21st, 2011, 01:35 PM   #1514
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Trucks are not the cause of traffic congestion at the Gotthard Tunnel. The Gotthard Base Tunnel will do absolutely nothing to reduce traffic congestion. There are almost no trucks on the Gotthard route.
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Old December 21st, 2011, 03:48 PM   #1515
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Transit traffic represents around 20% of the total of freight road transport (in tonnes*km), so it's not so irrilevant on local scale. Transit accounts for 37% of freight traffic, including railways.

Transit trucks were around 707.000 in 2008, or ~2.300 a day. But as a lot of these make long trips, if you consider the vehicles*km the result is not so low.
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Old December 21st, 2011, 04:00 PM   #1516
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Vehicle kilometers are irrelevant to the Gotthard Tunnel problems. Like I said before, 2300 trucks per day on one out of two links between major industrialized countries is absolutely nothing. The portrayed image of the truck avalanche through the Alps is just an excuse the push the expensive base tunnel through.
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Old December 21st, 2011, 06:39 PM   #1517
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Coccodrillo View Post
They should put an high toll on foreign cars and trucks instead. Then they should sell passing rights in advance, with extremely high tolls on summer weekends (say 80-90 € per car) and lower on winter weekdays (but not lower than 40 € per trip).
Is Switzerland's politic bound to isolate itself as more as possible?

Increasing fees means reducing number of tourists and workers that they come to Switzerland!

Tell me something about the "vignette": is it true that is going to cost 100,- CHF instead of 40,- CHF without an alternative to occasional travellers (such Austrian 10-Tage or 2-Monate Vignette)?
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Old December 21st, 2011, 06:49 PM   #1518
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Don't worry, I was just trying to provoke Suburbanist, just like he does trolling in every thread in the railway forum.

The vignette's price will increase to 100 CHF, but a 2 month vignette for 40 CHF will be introduced. But nothing will change until 2014 at the earliest.
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Old December 21st, 2011, 06:58 PM   #1519
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Coccodrillo View Post
Don't worry, I was just trying to provoke Suburbanist, just like he does trolling in every thread in the railway forum.

The vignette's price will increase to 100 CHF, but a 2 month vignette for 40 CHF will be introduced. But nothing will change until 2014 at the earliest.
Good to know!
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Old December 23rd, 2011, 04:57 PM   #1520
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Winter in Switzerland




These pictures were made this tuesday near Erstfeld. They've totally shut down the Gottard route for trucks that day. (gesperrt = closed) I was there around 14.00..

Around 21:00 they've tried to let some trucks through, which a lot of truckers (including me) refused, since I wouldn't have 9 rest hours on my tachograph when I had to drive again at 5:00. Remember all trucks are packed on those parkings. They want you to fill the gaps completely, so you can't get away, but when it's driving again you can't stay parked either.

They're way too much panicing when it comes to the Gotthard corridor. When there's just a car broken down in the tunnel they close it directly in both directions and for trucks the delay can easily get 1 - 2 hours. When it comes to snow and icing I understand the swiss don't like to take risks, but they have to be reasonable. Blocking hundreds of trucks for a whole day while the roads are driveable (even though with low speed) is costing so much money that it only should be used as a last resort imo.
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