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Old June 25th, 2012, 06:14 PM   #1821
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Most freight to Italy uses Brenner anyway. But as Switzerland decided to join Schengen, it also comes with a few obligations.
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Old June 25th, 2012, 07:08 PM   #1822
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Suburbanist View Post
I bet 80% or more of the freight traffic on the Gotthard goes to/comes from Italy.
No, I meant that the Gotthard road tunnel has nothing to do with some railway in Italy.
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Old June 25th, 2012, 08:25 PM   #1823
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Except that both are bottlenecks of the same transportation axis.

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Originally Posted by Road_UK View Post
Most freight to Italy uses Brenner anyway. But as Switzerland decided to join Schengen, it also comes with a few obligations.
As far I know Schengen is meant to reduce border controls for people, not for goods, and neither is a transportation agreement...
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Old June 25th, 2012, 08:41 PM   #1824
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Coccodrillo View Post
Except that both are bottlenecks of the same transportation axis.
But one is a road and the other is a railway. They don't depend on each other.
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Old June 25th, 2012, 09:22 PM   #1825
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But one bottleneck may be going to be resolved, so it is time to start thinking how to solve the second.
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Old June 25th, 2012, 09:36 PM   #1826
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Coccodrillo
Except that both are bottlenecks of the same transportation axis.

As far I know Schengen is meant to reduce border controls for people, not for goods, and neither is a transportation agreement...
Perhaps, but Switzerland is a right pain in the ass when it comes to transit. A little island that blocks traffic that wants to go to Italy, leaving Austria and France to deal with the problem. In my van coming from Calais I always have to use either Mont Blanc or Brenner when I'm loaded, as paperwork on the border takes too much time, and customs doesn't open until 6am. Coming back empty I always use Gotthard.
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Old June 27th, 2012, 04:15 PM   #1827
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The official press release can be found here in the three official languages with some more documents. The second tunnel will have two full lanes, unlike the one under construction at the Fréjus, certainly without a third emergency lane (as the first few years the second lane will stay closed). Opening of the new tunnel and refurbishment of the first is not planned before 2030, and a referendum against this new tunnel might still be possible.
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Old June 27th, 2012, 04:20 PM   #1828
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Interesting. There will be an emergency lane in both directions. Would it be an idea to open the shoulder during summer peaks? That way permanent capacity will not be increased but summer/weekend delays will be minimized. I read this is also explicitely stated as out of the question.
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Old June 27th, 2012, 04:35 PM   #1829
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Would it be an idea to open the shoulder during summer peaks? That way permanent capacity will not be increased but summer/weekend delays will be minimized.
That's what in my opinion will happen. A recent surveys (I don't know how much scientific, though) has recently shown that the majority of the surveyed wants both a second tube and the respect of the Alpen-Initiative (the truck limit + railway enhancement).

Although shoulder running is still impossible according to the Alpen-Initiative law, this might be modified after a referendum so as to allow a sort of shoulder running on, say, 100 days a year with a prohibition for trucks on this lane. This referendum is not planned but I'm sure the TCS and the ASTAG will propose it (not before the new tunnel is opened though).

The result wouldn't be a full 2+2 motorway (also because the northern ramp seems quite substandard to me), but something very similar, at least on peak days.

Personally, I expected this decision, as the government before that announcement proposed a temporary train shuttle services with infrastructures comparable to the Eurotunnel Shuttle. There will be no such service during the 3+2 months closure, although I suppose a limited shuttle service for small vehicles of local traffic only will be provided (there are already infrastructures for this, capacity would be around 300-400 cars per hour per direction).
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Old June 27th, 2012, 04:43 PM   #1830
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The European court has vetoed an Austrian ruling to restrict freight traffic across the Brenner even further. This has upset the local newspapers in Tirol, stating that Europe declares war on health to protect the economy...
Switzerland is not within the jurisdiction of the European Courts, so there might come a day when they start placing no entry signs on the border..?
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Old June 27th, 2012, 04:55 PM   #1831
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Road_UK View Post
stating that Europe declares war on health to protect the economy...
That's not so untrue...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Road_UK View Post
Switzerland is not within the jurisdiction of the European Courts, so there might come a day when they start placing no entry signs on the border..?
For transit traffic? Certainly not.
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Old June 27th, 2012, 06:14 PM   #1832
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What exactly prevents the future two-tube Gotthard tunnel from a normal operation mode of 2 lanes in each direction, and shutting down one lane as emergency lane when needed for repairs, etc.?
Why will the capacity be artificially limited? It can't be an intention of greenies, since the same amount of vehicles produce more exhaust gasses if having to wait in traffic jams ...
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Old June 27th, 2012, 06:19 PM   #1833
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Corvinus
What exactly prevents the future two-tube Gotthard tunnel from a normal operation mode of 2 lanes in each direction, and shutting down one lane as emergency lane when needed for repairs, etc.?
Why will the capacity be artificially limited? It can't be an intention of greenies, since the same amount of vehicles produce more exhaust gasses if having to wait in traffic jams ...
Your country should held another referendum, maybe people will be better informed and change idea. Tell them that a two tube tunnel with no jams is more ecofriendly...
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Old June 27th, 2012, 06:26 PM   #1834
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Unfortunately decisions like that are often not made based on pragmatism or facts.
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Old June 27th, 2012, 06:30 PM   #1835
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Article 84, nr.3, of the Federal Constitution (with more details written in other laws I can't find right now):

Quote:
Die Transitstrassen-Kapazität im Alpengebiet darf nicht erhöht werden. Von dieser Beschränkung ausgenommen sind Umfahrungsstrassen, die Ortschaften vom Durchgangsverkehr entlasten.
Quote:
La capacité des routes de transit des régions alpines ne peut être augmentée. Les routes de contournement qui déchargent les localités du trafic de transit ne sont pas soumises à cette disposition.
Quote:
La capacità delle strade di transito nella regione alpina non può essere aumentata. Sono eccettuate le strade di circonvallazione che sgravano gli abitati dal traffico di transito.
That can be translated in "the capacity of transit roads in alpine regions cannot be increased, with the exception of bypasses of towns and villages".

That's the law, one may not like it, but that's the law. As in Switzerland citizens can propose a vote to cancel, modify or create a law if they find enough signatures, then this law might change. But until then, it has to be respected. And I'm sure that after a few summer months, with the second tunnel, this law will be changed (maybe in a slightly modified variant that allows shoulder running).
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Last edited by Coccodrillo; June 27th, 2012 at 06:40 PM.
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Old June 27th, 2012, 08:06 PM   #1836
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisZwolle View Post
Unfortunately decisions like that are often not made based on pragmatism or facts.
I would like to see some statistics on air quality in Leventina and Reuss valleys, compared with the rest of the A2 and nearby motorways (A35.fr/A5.de/A9.it).
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Old June 27th, 2012, 08:24 PM   #1837
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http://www.bafu.admin.ch/luft/luftbe...x.html?lang=en

Current measurements in Switzerland. I reckon the most problematic days are during atmospherical inversion. Still, there are not many local sources of pollution in those valleys. I suspect the southern part has many of its sources in Northern Italy.
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Old June 27th, 2012, 09:32 PM   #1838
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I think they remain local. The mountains stops it from going anywhere,that is the whole point.
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Old June 27th, 2012, 09:36 PM   #1839
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But there is little traffic, industry, housing and intensive agriculture in those valleys, which are the main sources of PM10. Besides, it's not a very arid region, so pollutants are diluted by rain and snow from time to time.
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Old June 28th, 2012, 07:00 AM   #1840
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Quote:
Originally Posted by italystf View Post
Tell them that a two tube tunnel with no jams is more ecofriendly...
The case is not that black and white. The jam-free twin tunnel may remove the issue of the local pollution due to congestion. But it still increases the traffic bandwidth, and attracts more traffic to the Swiss transit routes. Thus, the total amount on emissions increases while the local peaks may be relieved.

I can very well understand the attitude in Switzerland. The small country is surrounded by EU countries. If the EU wants to improve the north-south connections, why Switzerland should build those on behalf of the EU.
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