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Old June 29th, 2012, 11:03 AM   #1861
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Originally Posted by Verso View Post
Just two decades left. No problem for me though, I haven't been to Switzerland since 2008.
15 years before decision and opening is actually an extremely short period of time, here.

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Originally Posted by Verso View Post
They're probably nationalist fools and by far not the only users. How do you know they don't want it anyway?
I have never heard any request of a Bern-Valais/Wallis road, and I'm not aware of any protest after the cancellation of the Rawil autostrasse. Sure, there might have been, but I have never heard of (obviously, I searched in the past more infos about that).

I'm well aware of the eternal discussion for the AlpTransit rail tunnels thought, as every region wanted one. To build the Gotthard one one through the Lötschberg had to be built (a good idea, by the way), while the requests of eastern Switzerland have not been heard (as a Splügen rail tunnel would not serve internal traffic).

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Originally Posted by Suburbanist View Post
Just because somebody live near an infrastructure installation doesn't mean they are necessarily their main users
With no Simplon road tunnel and a 2+2 Gotthard tunnel the interest of a Bern-Valais road would be mainly local (except for Bern-Italy trips).
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Old June 29th, 2012, 02:14 PM   #1862
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Originally Posted by ChrisZwolle View Post
If you go from the Netherlands to Rome it's only a detour of 30 kilometers if you drive via the Fernpass and Brennerpass. If you want to keep the motorway via Nürnberg and München it's an additional 100 km.

By the way, the Swiss vignette is not cheaper than the Austrian tolls anymore. If you pay 4 x € 8, it's € 32 to get through Austria two times, while 40 CHF is currently € 33,30. This is due to the high exchange rate of the Swiss Franc. Just about a year ago or so the Swiss vignette was still about € 5 cheaper. Gassing up in Austria is also probably cheaper nowadays, especially Diesel.
In most of the tourist seasons Austrian and German radio stations advise people against using the Fernpass. Ungoing roadworks and Blockabfertigung at the Füssentunnel doesn't get you anywhere fast. I usually use Fernpass at night or early mornings only.

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In my experience, the Dutch are the second most frequent nationality at the Brenner, after of course the Germans and even before the Austrians. Maybe not around the year, but surely in summer.
Well they would be in summer. Tyrol (both north and south) are very popular with the Dutch, Mayrhofen is full of Dutch holidaymakers right now. But to the rest of Italy they intend to use Gotthard, and I always see a hell of a lot more Dutch there then transiting on the A22. A lot of them with caravans broken down, because of the heat inside the tunnel. The whole of Tyrol heads down to the Garda Lake every summer. And there is a lot of Germany between Kufstein and Berlin that are better off using Brenner. Everything in the west will use Gotthard. I use Brenner, Gotthard and Mont Blanc on a very regular basis, but back to Calais empty I will ALWAYS use Gotthard if I am not stopping in Mayrhofen.

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Originally Posted by mcarling View Post

How about extending Germany's A7 and A95 to intersection with Austria's A12 near Innsbruck?

Do you really want to build a motorway through Seefeld and Fernpass?
Are you nuts? Decades ago they were talking about a motorway through the Zillertal, linking the A12 with Italy. Nuts, nuts, nuts!!!
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Old June 29th, 2012, 05:33 PM   #1863
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They should link Fussen and Innsbruck with a highway, and do the same with Garmisch-Partenkirschen.
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Old June 29th, 2012, 05:46 PM   #1864
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Local authorities, as well as the local population will never allow a highway through tourist centres and beautiful sceneries like the Fernpass, Garmisch, Seefeld and Scharnitz. Forget it, it's not going to happen.
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Old June 29th, 2012, 05:56 PM   #1865
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Originally Posted by Road_UK View Post
Local authorities, as well as the local population will never allow a highway through tourist centres and beautiful sceneries like the Fernpass, Garmisch, Seefeld and Scharnitz. Forget it, it's not going to happen.
But I'm sure Garmischers (or better: Partenkircheners) are sick and tired of all traffic through their nice city. Oberau and Farchant, just few km north, were so sick and tired that they demanded - and obtained - an autobahnlich bypass.
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Old June 29th, 2012, 06:02 PM   #1866
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Originally Posted by Coccodrillo View Post
15 years before decision and opening is actually an extremely short period of time, here.
Is that because of wasting time, or procedures in Switzerland last so long?

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Originally Posted by Coccodrillo View Post
I have never heard any request of a Bern-Valais/Wallis road
I meant a second tube of Gotthard, not a Bern-Valais road. I know locals are particularly worried about pollution of their environment, but don't they get tired of waiting in traffic jams or driving over the Gotthard mountain pass?
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Old June 29th, 2012, 06:13 PM   #1867
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After Scharnitz the valley is not wide enough to have AND a motorway, AND villages, AND farmhouses, AND tourist facilities, AND peace and quiet next to each other. It will scare of the tourists, which is the main source of income for the Tyrolians. Someone on here opted a link between Holzkirchen and AS Wiesing on the A12 through Achensee. I think this idea came from a flatlander in the north, Holland or something...
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Old June 29th, 2012, 06:16 PM   #1868
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After Scharnitz the valley is not wide enough to have AND a motorway, AND [...]
Tunnels can make miracles.
Main problem is not width, but steepness.
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Old June 29th, 2012, 06:32 PM   #1869
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I just don't think it will happen...
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Old June 29th, 2012, 06:38 PM   #1870
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Me neither.
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Old June 29th, 2012, 06:51 PM   #1871
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ASFiNAG is currently trying to reduce its debt, so I wouldn't expect any new large projects in Austria until 2020, except for the planned major projects around Wien.

There isn't much to complain about Austria's road network. Tunnels have been doubled or will be doubled in the near future, leaving only the Arlbergtunnel to be single tube out of the major road tunnels. But there isn't that much traffic on that corridor except for maybe 2 or 3 weekends in the winter. Fernpass is more problematic, though it's not really that hard to solve with a couple of tunnels <6 km.
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Old June 29th, 2012, 10:41 PM   #1872
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Is that because of wasting time, or procedures in Switzerland last so long?
Nothing can be built in Switzerland is funding is entirely secured (either having it cash, or a way to find it (like a new tax). Then there are endless discussion to decide if a particular project is really useful or not, and then to choose the best variant.

Usually (recently) money is not directly allocated to projects, but firstly to a fund. I can cite a rail example as I know it better (but it's similar for roads). In the 1990s it was approved by a referendum an investment of 31,5 billions for railways with a defined source of income. Obviously there was already a quite precise idea of what to build with that money, but some particular projects were cancelled and replaced with others, with works between 1995 and 2025. In 2010 the government started planning another group of projects to be built from 2020 to...2040.

More recently (2006?) another fund has been created for roads and urban transports with funds for 20,8 billions (of which 6 billions for urban projects, both road and public transport - the rest is entirely for roads). It's via this fund that are being financed most new motorways (A8, A9, A16) and widenings. Money for the second Gotthard road tunnel must come from another source as these 20,8 billions have already been allocated at least politically - so finding money will be the main obstacle for its construction.

And as big expenses usually end up in referendums, these big groups of projects with relative funding usually have to be prepared as to make every region happy. If it isn't the case they are likely to be rejected by voters. For example the AlpTransit project (part of these 31,5 billions) has been accepted because it offered a rail tunnel for the western cantons, one for the central ones and upgrades of lines in the east. But others like the Avanti projects (proposed by road lobbies) has been rejected, if I remember correctly there was basically a widening to 2x3 of most of the A1, the second Gotthard tunnel (2+2), some other road projects and some public transport ones (to try to catch more votes).

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Originally Posted by Verso View Post
I meant a second tube of Gotthard, not a Bern-Valais road. I know locals are particularly worried about pollution of their environment, but don't they get tired of waiting in traffic jams or driving over the Gotthard mountain pass?
Apparently not - voters even in Ticino have always voted against the second tunnel and in favour of rail projects until now.

(for Uri it's the same, and they don't even have to cross the Alps to go to the other cantons)
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Old June 29th, 2012, 10:45 PM   #1873
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Nothing can be built in Switzerland is funding is entirely secured
Interesting. Due to the incredibly slow work pace of A9 and A16 I expected them to fund only sections at the time. The Netherlands also need 100% funding before construction can begin but when it starts it's usually completed very rapidly (1 - 3 years mostly). Germany often cuts larger projects up in very small fragments, some of which are not fully funded. That's why some projects are going at a snail's pace.
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Old June 29th, 2012, 11:04 PM   #1874
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We can say that the funding of A9 and A16 is secured, but not that the money is available. I can explain with the example of the 31,5 billions fund for railways I know better. It was approved mid-1990s, and since then it is filled with around 1,5 billions a year. There aren't 31,5 billions yet, but they are reserved, in the sense that the unspent but still non-earned money of these 31,5 cannot be used for other things than what is planned in the fund (although single projects can be modified, for example a tunnel near Zürich has been replaced by upgrade of lines around Lausanne).

To allow a quicker construction of enormous single projects in a reasonable time like the Gotthard base tunnel (10 billions) the government has anticipated some money to this fund, but the fund will have to repay it in the future. But also there, boring of the Ceneri base tunnel (the third of three main AlpTransit rail tunnels) started only when building of the Lötschberg was nearly finished.

For roads it's similar, so even if there would be enough money to build more quickly the A9 or the A16 alone, it is seen as politically better to build something in every region (not only for these two motorways - also parts of the A8 and others roads are funded by the same fund) rather than building quickly the A9, then the A16 or viceversa. However there is "virtual" money for everything, so there is no risk of works being abandoned because of lack of funds.

The government is working right now on a new fund for other rail projects, and I think another for roads is in the planning stage.
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Old June 30th, 2012, 12:17 AM   #1875
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(for Uri it's the same, and they don't even have to cross the Alps to go to the other cantons)
Ticino and Italy?
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Old June 30th, 2012, 02:17 PM   #1876
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But I'm sure Garmischers (or better: Partenkircheners) are sick and tired of all traffic through their nice city. Oberau and Farchant, just few km north, were so sick and tired that they demanded - and obtained - an autobahnlich bypass.
They actually argue for decades about a GAP bypass. There are as many Garmisch-Partenkircheners in favour as there are against this project as the Upper Bavarians in this region tend to be very big NIMBYs. Anyway, if the GAP bypass should be constructed (not only for B2, but also another one for Garmisch connecting B2 with the cablecars and Fernpass) this would be the end of any updates for a long time in that region.
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Old June 30th, 2012, 08:39 PM   #1877
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Ticino and Italy?
Most common destinations for Uri's citizens are around Lucerne-Zug-Zürich so they don't need the road tunnel, while to the south they also have the train. For Ticino it's different, although most trips are around the city of residence, Ticino-Northern Switzerland trips are quite relevant.
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Old June 30th, 2012, 09:13 PM   #1878
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I can hardly believe that an average Uri resident goes to south less often than an average (southwestern) German.
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Old June 30th, 2012, 09:38 PM   #1879
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Maybe not via the motorway, as last year they voted against a second tunnel. So either they don't go south frequently, or go there by the pass or by train, or simply they don't want another tunnel.
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Old July 1st, 2012, 02:50 PM   #1880
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Tolls may be a way to finance new road projects, like the second road tunnel and the lake crossing of Geneva.

However the toll for Basel-Chiasso trips for a truck cannot exceed 325 CHF because of agreements with the EU. 325 CHF corresponded to around 220 EUR when the agreement were signed, equals to around 270 EUR today and may become...325 EUR or more if the Swiss national bank will not be able to maintain the current exchange rate in the future. The toll for a trip through the Fréjus or Mont Blanc tunnels for trucks is around 300 € with discounts for frequent users (plus the tolls for nearby motorways). The Brenner motorway is cheaper, I remember 130 euro for a similar 300 km trip but I can't find the source.

http://www.lematin.ch/suisse/berne-e...story/22976106
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