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Old August 14th, 2007, 07:19 PM   #21
hix
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The connections you have taken in the Benelux or not the most obvious. Why not Amsterdam-Brussels, Oostende-Liege or Paris-Brussels? And if you compaire national connections in Germany with international connections in other countries that would give a wrong idea. May you could take Köln-Vienna or Berlin-Warschau for instance?
In Belgium almost nobody pays full price.
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Old August 14th, 2007, 08:01 PM   #22
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Neither did he give the most frequented services in other countries. I mean, who would go to Cherbourg?? To that extent I think it's fair comparison.
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Old August 14th, 2007, 09:40 PM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hix View Post
The connections you have taken in the Benelux or not the most obvious. Why not Amsterdam-Brussels, Oostende-Liege or Paris-Brussels? And if you compaire national connections in Germany with international connections in other countries that would give a wrong idea. May you could take Köln-Vienna or Berlin-Warschau for instance?
In Belgium almost nobody pays full price.
, I knew people would complain about my choices, I tried to avoid the most obvious fast routes whilst not being too obscure. I treated Benelux as one area because a) it's pretty well integrated in many fields and b) it's small so national services are short, you can walk across Belgium in an hour and Luxembourg is smaller than my garden

I think it's impossible to make a totally fair and accurate comparison in every respect.
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Old August 14th, 2007, 09:43 PM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eusebius View Post
The seniors get a number of days of free travel in NL - always a warning to the others: grey haired masses ahead
Pensioners in Wales are now getting free rural rail services as an experiment that may be extended.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/wales/6180746.stm
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Old August 14th, 2007, 09:46 PM   #25
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Sorry, I didn't want to criticise. You're right about the difficulty of compairing different systems.
However, I'm in France quite often and I'm always disapointed about the service of non-TGV lines. Arles-Nimes for instances is a terrible connection. And very often quite big cities in France (+- 50.000 to 150.00 inh.) are only connected 5 times a day with other cities...
I have the greatest respect for the work you've done! Never could do a better job!
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Old August 14th, 2007, 09:51 PM   #26
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In Belgium 60 + people ride free on train and bus. Also working people commute free every day. Young people get a cheap go-pass. And there's always special prices and offers like: weekend at sea or in the Ardennes. For people like me who do not commute or who are too old and too young there's the rail-pass, who give a good price for day-trips...
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Old August 14th, 2007, 10:30 PM   #27
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Working people commute free? Does the employer have to pay?
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Old August 14th, 2007, 10:42 PM   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jonesy55 View Post
I treated Benelux as one area because a) it's pretty well integrated in many fields

It was through searching further because of this thread that I found out that ns.nl smoothly leads onto the Belgian railways dot be. One would only notice it from looking at the address bar. The website design remained exactly the same. Jonesy holds a point here.

Maybe this thread should focus on learning from regional services in individual countries rather than compare connections via high speed rail or intercity links - as they're known in the Netherlands.

France and Britain can be compared; Paris and London easily are the most important cities in the respective countries. It's different in most european countries though.

The major switchboard in the Netherlands is Utrecht, not Amsterdam.
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Old August 15th, 2007, 02:44 AM   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jonesy55 View Post
I treated Benelux as one area because a) it's pretty well integrated in many fields
Since I don't own a car I would love to agree but unfortunately I have to disagree.

Public transport between the Netherlands and Belgium (and Germany also) is generally very poor. I don't live far from both borders but there is no direct train or even bus going there. Visiting Germany or Belgium requires changing trains in Venlo, Maastricht or Roosendaal with longer waiting times and crappy trains that only go once every hour.

Antwerp is only 45 minutes by car from Eindhoven, but almost 2 hours by train. A flatmate of mine visited Leuven this weekend and you don't want to know how long it took him to get there by train. Let's just say that thanks to Ryanair it's faster and easier to get to London from Eindhoven than to Leuven. Probably cheaper too.

Last edited by dennol; August 15th, 2007 at 02:49 AM.
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Old August 15th, 2007, 09:19 AM   #30
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Germany's system is quite reasonable and comprehensive - maybe because of the stranglehold of a single company, DB. This does have many advantages but of cause many disadvantages as well.

Prices can be high, but some people by the 25% or 50% bahn cards. I have the 50% which as suggested, drops 50% off the fare. This costs €206 a year.

You don't get as good specials as you can find in the UK, sometimes they are real cheap there, but only if booked a while in advanced. But short distances in the UK can be terribly expensive on National Rail, especially if you buy the day. There also seems to be such a confusion with fares, with so many different types and many specials that you have to check hard to see if you qualify.

But thanks for the excellent post.
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Old August 15th, 2007, 10:40 AM   #31
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Working people commute free? Does the employer have to pay?
I don't know exactly but I think the employer pays half and the federal gouverment pays the other half.
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Old August 16th, 2007, 03:20 PM   #32
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Spain & Portugal

+ Good value, fast services between some cities
- Not very frequent, poor or non-existent links between some major cities (eg Seville-Lisbon, Alicante-Malaga)
I completly agree with that. I think the there are non-existant links between Malaga-Alicante, for example, because Spain has a low population density(It's the second largest european country, behind France and it's only around 45 million). So railnet is relatively poor compared with other european countries.Besides, trains are more expensive than coaches.That's why people tends to use coaches instead of trains.
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Old August 16th, 2007, 03:28 PM   #33
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I found it really shocking to see how little trains there are between big cities in Spain. Like 3 or 4 a day! Well that was at least the case in Andalusia.
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Old August 16th, 2007, 07:36 PM   #34
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Yeah, in Holland you have four trains per hour between cities!
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Old August 16th, 2007, 07:57 PM   #35
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Quote:
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I found it really shocking to see how little trains there are between big cities in Spain. Like 3 or 4 a day! Well that was at least the case in Andalusia.
Well, Between Seville-Cordoba-Granade and Seville-Cadiz the service is well, about 1:30 hour per each, and between Cordoba you could take High Speed AVE every 25 minutes. But with Malaga, Extremadura and Portugal the connections are very bads, with Malaga, 3 or 4 every day, with Extremadura only 1 per day, and with Portugal the Service is inexisting. But the trains are very cheap and the speed is ok, about 120 Km/h. Price between Seville and Cadiz or Cordoba is about 15€ return ticket, and 25€ for AVE.
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Old August 16th, 2007, 10:17 PM   #36
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Anyways, some intercity routes may also be less serviced by trains because of reliable bus services with competitive prices.
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Old August 16th, 2007, 10:53 PM   #37
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Quote:
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Well, Between Seville-Cordoba-Granade and Seville-Cadiz the service is well, about 1:30 hour per each, and between Cordoba you could take High Speed AVE every 25 minutes. But with Malaga, Extremadura and Portugal the connections are very bads, with Malaga, 3 or 4 every day, with Extremadura only 1 per day, and with Portugal the Service is inexisting. But the trains are very cheap and the speed is ok, about 120 Km/h. Price between Seville and Cadiz or Cordoba is about 15€ return ticket, and 25€ for AVE.
I took the train from Seville to Cadiz a couple of years ago and the service seemed pretty good, also from Algeciras to Ronda was good too but for most of the journeys on that trip we had to take the bus like Ayamonte-Seville, Cadiz-Algeciras, Ronda-Malaga, Malaga-Granada and Granada-Murcia.
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Old August 17th, 2007, 02:20 PM   #38
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Anyways, some intercity routes may also be less serviced by trains because of reliable bus services with competitive prices.
And planes. For example Barcelona-Madrid is the most bussy air route in the world.
The case of Alicante-Málaga, for example, they are 500km away (despite the fact that they seem to be very close in the map). They have coach/plane service every day. A Coruña-Barcelona is about 1200km away like Barcelona-Cádiz, or A Coruña-Cádiz. The medium distance between spanish cities is about 600-800 km, which is far superior compared with the rest of european countries. Current train is useful in short-medium distances, but not in longest ones.That's why the importance of high speed trains in Spain.

The trains in Spain can be:

Short distance or "Cercanías", which their frequency is about 5/10 minutes per route in Madrid or Barcelona.







Medium distance or "Regionales"







Long distance or "Largo recorrido" (ONLY non high speed trains)

Tren Estrella (night-train)



Talgo (Spanish company) is the king of long-distance train (high speed and current speed).

Euromed (Barcelona-Valencia)




Talgo services:

Talgo III
Talgo Miguel de Unamuno: Barcelona-Sants - Castejón de Ebro - Bilbao-Abando / Irún - Hendaye-(SNCF) / Salamanca
Talgo Covadonga-Finisterre: Barcelona-Sants - Vigo / A Coruña-San Cristóbal / Gijón-Cercanías




Talgo III RD



Talgo Barcelona Estació de França - Portbou/Cerbère - Montpellier

Talgo IV

Altaria: A Coruña-San Cristóbal / Pontevedra - Madrid Chamartín - Alacant Terminal
Talgo: A Coruña-San Cristóbal / Pontevedra - Madrid Chamartín
Talgo: Madrid Chamartín - Bilbao-Abando
Talgo: Madrid Chamartín - Santander
Talgo: Madrid Chamartín - Gijón-Cercanías
Altaria: Madrid Chamartín - Albacete - Murcia del Carmen - Cartagena

Talgo 200 / Talgo VI
Talgo VI

Talgo 200




Talgo 200: Madrid Puerta de Atocha-Málaga con cambio de ancho de vía en el intercambiador de Antequera-Santa Ana.
Talgo Mare Nostrum horario: Montpellier - Cartagena
Talgo Lorca horario : Barcelona Estació de França - Lorca-Sutullena
Talgo Extremadura : Madrid Chamartín - Badajoz
Altaria Triana horario : Barcelona Sants -Cádiz
Altaria : Madrid-Puerta de Atocha -Cádiz / Huelva con cambio de ancho de vía en el intercambiador de Majarabique en Sevilla.
Trenhotel Antonio Machado horario : Barcelona Sants - Cádiz
Trenhotel Gibralfaro horario : Barcelona Sants - Granada/Málaga (la composición de éste tren va mezclada con remolques de diferentes series)
Trenhotel Francisco de Goya horario : Madrid Chamartín - Paris Gare d'Austerlitz
Trenhotel Joan Miró: Barcelona Estació de França - Paris Gare d'Austerlitz
Trenhotel Pau Casals: Barcelona Estació de França - Zürich Hauptbanhof
Trenhotel Salvador Dalí: Barcelona Estació de França - Milano-Centrale
Trenhotel Lusitania horario : Madrid Chamartín - Lisboa Santa Apolónia (la composición de éste tren va mezclada con remolques de diferentes series)
Trenhotel : Madrid Chamartín - A Coruña-San Cristóbal/Vigo-Pontevedra
DB-NachtZug EN-1900/1901 Pluto : Berlin-Lichtenberg - München Ostbanhof

Talgo VII





Talgo: Santander - Madrid Chamartín - Alacant Terminal
Talgo: Gijón-Cercanías - Madrid Chamartín - Alacant Terminal
Altaria Alacant Terminal - Madrid-Chamartín
Altaria-Triana Barcelona-Sants - Cádiz
Altaria Barcelona-Sants - Madrid-Puerta de Atocha
Altaria Madrid-Puerta de Atocha - Iruña-Pamplona
Altaria Madrid-Puerta de Atocha - Logroño
Altaria Madrid-Puerta de Atocha - Irún / Hendaye-SNCF)
Altaria Madrid-Chamartín - Almería / Granada

Talgo 350



AVE Madrid-Puerta de Atocha - Camp de Tarragona
Futuro AVE Madrid-Puerta de Atocha - Valladolid-Campo Grande

http://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talgo
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Old August 17th, 2007, 03:33 PM   #39
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Really great job Jonesy, chapeau!
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Old August 23rd, 2007, 12:08 AM   #40
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I live at the German border in the city of Enschede. We have an excellent connection with Dortmund and Münster. The German railservice departs every 30 minutes. The Amsterdam connection is only once every our. And there's not even a direct connection with our capital.


In Hengelo a city 8 km nearby Enschede, you can depart every two hours directly to Berlin (Deutsche Bahn Internationale train). More railwaycompanies have taken lines over from the Nationale Dutch Railways NS. In Hengelo you have a lightrailcompagnie Syntus. There a plans to take over a line to the German city Bad Bentheim.


Almelo a city 10km nearby Hengelo. Twents railwaycompany
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