Scottish Politics

[Snudge]

I don't think the question is whether we are hard done by, but as previous posters have stated, could we do it better? Scotland has been run by Labour for donkey's years, to what benefit? I previously voted Labour in but I am pleased to say that I don't think AS has put a foot wrong so far, probably because he is a lot brighter than the rest of them.

[Boards]

Decades of Labour rule gave us nothing but this bullshit mindset that occurs in large parts of the West of Scotland, things need to be freshened up, this shoud be a great country. Whatever you want to say about AS he pisses all over the current crop of politicians in Scotland as a politician and whats more he has a belief, he not just going through the corrupt motions like the rest of them.

[Its AlL gUUd]

Genuine question: How many on here would actually vote Yes for Independence if there was a referendum tomorrow?

P.S My own opiniong of Independence is that it is driven by tribalism, which is kind of weird because people in England aren't all that different to Scotland, if we went by this notion then eventually nearly every county of the UK or even individual cities can look for independence. When you look at countries such as the US who have different states which are 'worlds' apart like Texas, Florida or Alaska and can still be part of one massive country i find it difficult to see why such a small country like the UK can't do it. They have devolution with a federal government like here in the UK.
Time and time again i have seen that talk of independence(in scotland) is usually fuelled by Nationalism and patriotism which is the worst type of reasoning because it is initially driven by emoition.

I even here that some people in cornwall want an independent cornwall, wtf????

[Boards]

Tribalism? Patriotism? Its about how people perceive their peoples lot in the context of whatever union.

[Its AlL gUUd]

Originally Posted by Boards

Tribalism? Patriotism? Its about how people perceive their peoples lot in the context of whatever union.

well yeah, but i was trying to say that we are more alike then different. but that was my opinion.

[Jamandell (d69)]

For the record I would definately vote "No" in a referendum on independence.

[Snudge]

Yes or No? For me the jury is still out. There needs to be more info. before the majority of Scots could make an informed decision one way or the other, which is exactly what Alex Salmond is proposing with his national debate route. As I said previously I can't fault the way he has gone about his business so far, and maybe we will all be able to form sensible informed views rather than gut reactions which I think is the source of a lot of the opinions surrounding the Independence debate .

[crusty_bint]

It's a resounding no from me. I really don't see what the long-term benefits of independence will be. Just look at the state of our devolved politics, its an absolute joke! What makes anyone think it would be any better under independence? Politicians are politicians regardless of their stance or nationality. To put it bluntly - arseholes are arseholes!

What happens after independence and after the SNP holy grail, i.e. oil, runs out, wheres the recourse then? Would taxes, in real terms, be any lower under devolution? Will independence attract more investment, more companies, more jobs to Scotland? Will "the north" seek independence from England, followed by Wales and Cornwall, then the Midlands, until eventually all that's left is the London Metro vs. the rest of Britain? Where does that leave us then, because it would be naive in the extreme to think such a scenario would not have repercussions for an independent Scotland. I've seen Ireland cited as an example of how we could make a success of Independance but how long has it taken them to get to the stage they are? Can we afford to do the same?

The union was a good deal back in the day and we profited HEAVILY from it and it's a good deal today; for all concerned. Don't get me wrong, I don't consider myself a unionist, more anti-separatist. I simply do not see the logic in creating more division in an already splintered world, particularly in an age where we face humanity's biggest ever challenge - climate change! We all need to be working together more closely than ever, instead, the SNP and Alex Salmond are persisting with this anachronistic crusade to fulfill their own agendas.

As I said earlier: arseholes are arseholes.

[belle]

Like Crusty, I fail to see separation resulting in great gains. If it resulted in a better deal for those at the margins of society I might see an argument for it it but it isn't going to end poverty. Us comfy liberal cunts wouldn't want to slip down the ladder in a recession either would we.

[crusty_bint]

haha how succinctly put Belle!

Down with this sort of thing!

...careful now!

[schemie]

im against it on the simple fact that im British and would like to remain so.

[Its AlL gUUd]

Originally Posted by crusty_bint

It's a resounding no from me. I really don't see what the long-term benefits of independence will be. Just look at the state of our devolved politics, its an absolute joke! What makes anyone think it would be any better under independence? Politicians are politicians regardless of their stance or nationality. To put it bluntly - arseholes are arseholes!

What happens after independence and after the SNP holy grail, i.e. oil, runs out, wheres the recourse then? Would taxes, in real terms, be any lower under devolution? Will independence attract more investment, more companies, more jobs to Scotland? Will "the north" seek independence from England, followed by Wales and Cornwall, then the Midlands, until eventually all that's left is the London Metro vs. the rest of Britain? Where does that leave us then, because it would be naive in the extreme to think such a scenario would not have repercussions for an independent Scotland. I've seen Ireland cited as an example of how we could make a success of Independance but how long has it taken them to get to the stage they are? Can we afford to do the same?

The union was a good deal back in the day and we profited HEAVILY from it and it's a good deal today; for all concerned. Don't get me wrong, I don't consider myself a unionist, more anti-separatist. I simply do not see the logic in creating more division in an already splintered world, particularly in an age where we face humanity's biggest ever challenge - climate change! We all need to be working together more closely than ever, instead, the SNP and Alex Salmond are persisting with this anachronistic crusade to fulfill their own agendas.

As I said earlier: arseholes are arseholes.

thats actually a great post, totally agree.

[Mr. B]

Just picking up from what Schemie said. I was born as a British citizen and wish to remain so until I die. Therefore it's a definate 'NO'. I love Scotland, but more so I love my nation, the UK. Bring it on Salmond, I laugh in your face.

[milton]

Originally Posted by crusty_bint

We all need to be working together more closely than ever, instead, the SNP and Alex Salmond are persisting with this anachronistic crusade to fulfill their own agendas.

As I said earlier: arseholes are arseholes.

Certainly after standing on a platform of pursuing independence, the decent thing for the SNP to do now that they're in would be to scrap the policy?

[crusty_bint]

Do you think so? Where did you pluck that question from and how does it relate to my post?

The best thing the SNP could do would be to disband entirely and reform with a real agenda that will benefit Scotland.

[milton]

Originally Posted by crusty_bint

Do you think so? Where did you pluck that question from and how does it relate to my post?

Well, you said they were "persisting with this anachronistic crusade to fulfill their own agendas".
I would read it as:
1. The SNP pledged to bring about this paper pushing for independence if they got in.
2. They got voted in. A minority government, yes, but they got in.
3. They therefore published the document.

I'm really not sure what else you think they should have done. Say they got in, then neglected to publish this paper.. I'm sure there would be only too many people, including some on here, happy to express the opinion that "now they'd gotten in, they'd happily been too busy enjoying power to fulfil their manifesto obligations", or some such. Call me a cynic.

Originally Posted by crusty_bint

The best thing the SNP could do would be to disband entirely and reform with a real agenda that will benefit Scotland.

Would that not be letting down the people that voted for them a tad?

[Boards]

Originally Posted by Jamandell (d69)

For the record I would definately vote "No" in a referendum on independence.

You're English, shut it.

Quite how anyone could vote for that shower of c*nts that is Scottish Labour in its present form is beyond me.

[crusty_bint]

Milton I don't want to get into an argument with you or anything, so please don't take this the wrong way, but I won't be dragged into an exercise in post dissection ala page 1 so you needn't bother starting it as I won't reciprocate.

What I meant was that the notion of Scottish independence, the cornerstone of the SNP's manifesto, is:

1. Anachronistic in that countries all over the world are forming, sometimes reforming unions, along geographic and cultural lines, which are mutually beneficial in terms of increased political clout on the world stage, increased trade power, better resource and environmental management. The world gets smaller every year, societies are gradually coalescing, its just baffling that the prototype and probably most successful example of political, commercial and social union in the world would want to pursue the converse. Scotland was a backwater before the union, it paid for our Enlightenment, and we paid the world back in spades.
2. Selfish in that, today, there is no real justification nor warrant for disbanding the union and this crusade is only a tool to set them apart from the other parties who are becoming more and more homogeneous by the year. It is politics at its worst, dangling this elixir of painted-face "freedom", hailing it as the solution to all the problems this abstract notion of a tyrannical union supposedly has created when the reality is that we do it to ourselves.
3. Self-defeating in that, although I do believe the SNP think they are doing whats best for Scotland, ultimately Scotland will be in no better position it was being part of the UK.

I did not imply they should scrap the policy now that they are in, that would be farcicle. I meant that their energy would be better spent in pursuing a more productive and genuine, rather than divisive, agenda on behalf of the minority of Scots they represent. Maybe then they'll have my vote. And a majority.

[The Boy David]

Originally Posted by crusty_bint

The best thing the SNP could do would be to disband entirely and reform with a real agenda that will benefit Scotland.

Absolutely. Wise words matey - I totally agreed with your previous post too - I'm not a Unionist by any measure, I'm not even a nationalist, but I am hugely leaning towards being an "anti-separatist" for the reasons (amongst many others) that you mentioned before hand.


Even with the oil, there would still be a £10 billion gap in the budget. Doesn't that say it all? When asked to comment about this on Channel 4 news, Alex said something along the lines of "lets not quibble over insignificant figures, let's focus on the other benefits this will bring."

With a £10,000,000,000 gap in Scotland's budget, the other benefits will mean hee-fucking-haw.

[Boards]

Originally Posted by crusty_bint

Milton I don't want to get into an argument with you or anything.

You feeling alright or is it your day off?