Scottish Politics

[Boards]

http://www.theherald.co.uk/news/news...624598.0.0.php

[crusty_bint]

How, you wahntin wan?

Davey, thats what gets me about them getting into power at all, how can their voters not see right through them like the rest of us seem able to do? In fact, Boards and Milton, maybe you can answer that question, how can, apparently intelligent (har har) people not see past this this wee mans wee thinking?

I'm just kidding, I don't really want an answer

[Boards]

Any day of the week big man

What makes any of you think I voted SNP? I've already stated in this thread I wouldn't vote for independence. I would like more power devolved to Scotland though to enable the right conditions to attract further inward investment and business.

[crusty_bint]

Oh right, sorry, I couldn't be bothered finishing the first page and just assumed from your posts on page 2... I do beg your pardon.

Originally Posted by Boards

I would like more power devolved to Scotland though to enable the right conditions to attract further inward investment and business.

That I can buy into!

[gorgu]

I kinda like being part of the worlds fifth largest economy (although I am living in OZ) plus my dad was English mum Scottish so I am trully British in the sense of the word.

Salmond the wee ned can go and get fu[#ed

[Snudge]

Boy David, I didn't see the CH4 piece you mentioned re the funding gap but I would want to clear something up which is repeated on every forum throughout the land on this topic. AS is not a stupid wee ned, if he was it wouldn't say much about the Scottish labour party. He was in fact a senior financial adviser at board level to the RBS for donkeys years and is higly respected by them. This idea that the SNP have no idea how to count is ridiculous and taints every serious discussion in independence.

[milton]

Originally Posted by crusty_bint

Milton I don't want to get into an argument with you or anything, so please don't take this the wrong way, but I won't be dragged into an exercise in post dissection ala page 1 so you needn't bother starting it as I won't reciprocate.

What I meant was that the notion of Scottish independence, the cornerstone of the SNP's manifesto, is:

1. Anachronistic in that countries all over the world are forming, sometimes reforming unions, along geographic and cultural lines, which are mutually beneficial in terms of increased political clout on the world stage, increased trade power, better resource and environmental management. The world gets smaller every year, societies are gradually coalescing, its just baffling that the prototype and probably most successful example of political, commercial and social union in the world would want to pursue the converse. Scotland was a backwater before the union, it paid for our Enlightenment, and we paid the world back in spades.
2. Selfish in that, today, there is no real justification nor warrant for disbanding the union and this crusade is only a tool to set them apart from the other parties who are becoming more and more homogeneous by the year. It is politics at its worst, dangling this elixir of painted-face "freedom", hailing it as the solution to all the problems this abstract notion of a tyrannical union supposedly has created when the reality is that we do it to ourselves.
3. Self-defeating in that, although I do believe the SNP think they are doing whats best for Scotland, ultimately Scotland will be in no better position it was being part of the UK.

I did not imply they should scrap the policy now that they are in, that would be farcicle. I meant that their energy would be better spent in pursuing a more productive and genuine, rather than divisive, agenda on behalf of the minority of Scots they represent. Maybe then they'll have my vote. And a majority.

I see what you mean - my bad, misinterpreted what you meant..

I'll briefly answer the points though,
1. The countries forming unions thing - surely there are far more examples recently of regions seeking devolution, and indeed countries attaining independence? I agree wholly that the union has brought many benefits, and for the record, I'm not particularly driven by "independence" as a goal in itself.. but I don't really see that what was good in the past should necessarily be considered to be the best thing for the future too.
2. There are doubtless those that voted SNP that go for the whole painted face thing, but I doubt if it applies to anything other than a tiny majority. I can't help feel that your prejudice is showing through pretty strongly here. When yopu say stuff like that, it comes across as pretty dismissive, and divisive in itself.
The SNP have had their message/goal for as long as they've been in existence. Neither they -not I, or any of the rest of us- could have predicted that Labour, the Tories, the Lib Dems, would homogenise in the manner you mention. For most of my life I wouldn't have considered voting SNP - but the fact is that their message has stayed pretty true to its roots. I feel disenfrancised by the other parties.. no, worse, I feel genuinely betrayed by they way my vote has been bought then squandered by them in the past. I won't bore you with the details of individual broken manifesto pledges, but if you do want a list, I'll let you hear my rant about them!
For every SNP voter that you can find that seriously believes they stand for painted-face, driving out the English nationalism, I bet you I can find 10 Labour voters that vote that way simply because their father and grandfather did, or Tory voters that do like wise, from a slightly different social standing!
The homogenisation of the parties hasn't just driven me, and others away, on point of principle alone - it's the homogenisation of policies. My gradual shift towards the SNP has come about because I've started to believe that the policies I want to vote for will simply never be electable in the format of UK-wide elections (again, I won't ramble on any more than I already am by listing them, but if you do want to know, I'll go through them).
3. You could well be right - but I hope you're wrong. My main thought would be that we need more debate, and more openness on the issues to make our minds up. Given that both Labour and Tory MPs colluded on the 30-year repression of the infamous McCrone report, openness on the facts regarding Scotland's standing is not something I currently credit them with.

Anyway, that'll do for now - hopefully it's a rough representation of my feelings on the matter. I would add that I by know means see it as definite that I'd either vote SNP again, or for independence. I remain to be convinced either way.
With the exception of your point that the SNP could, under certain circumstances, earn your vote/respect, I can't help but notice that all the other sceptics on this thread are absolute in their resolve that they'd never vote that way.. either they have access to far more information than I do, which as a news junkie I seriously doubt (and by that I do not mean that I have all the facts - simply a reading of what's out there, the same as anyone else), or they have closed their minds to even the possibility that any other argument has validity.

If that's the case, then there's not a great deal of point in me, or anyone else, engaging in debate is there?

Sorry for the brash tone of the earlier post, btw, I do enjoy having a debate with your good self!

[Cosmo Disney]

No from me. The ties between the nations of the UK are just too strong. I don't want to have to decide between Scotland and England, I'm British and I like it that way.

[The Boy David]

Originally Posted by Snudge

Boy David, I didn't see the CH4 piece you mentioned re the funding gap but I would want to clear something up which is repeated on every forum throughout the land on this topic. AS is not a stupid wee ned, if he was it wouldn't say much about the Scottish labour party. He was in fact a senior financial adviser at board level to the RBS for donkeys years and is highly respected by them. This idea that the SNP have no idea how to count is ridiculous and taints every serious discussion in independence.

The fact that he was a senior financial advisor at RBS means almost nothing.


That means that if I should climb the ranks of BAE, I would then be allowed to tell everyone that if they vote for my aircraft, I'll give them something that can go at 20 times the speed of sound and run on the eco friendly fuel "Good Intentions".

Just because I'm in a senior position and I'm a very competent engineer, that doesn't mean I can't start throwing about ideas that could be extremely damaging to the company, i.e. ideas that will NOT WORK. I can tell people how great it will be, but it's not a very sensible thing to do.



So, if I can do it, so can AS - after all, he is a politician, and they are well renowned for making promises they can't deliver on.


I don't doubt Alex Salmond is a very, very good accountant and has an incredibly sound grasp of numbers, but to say that he can fill a £10 billion black hole without telling us how just because he's quite clever is just not good enough.

[Lostboy]

Salmond has proven the case for the break up of the Union. McConnel (sp?) was corrupt and hateful, so far Salmond has proven he is nothing but moderate, considerate and decent. It is in both Scotland's and England's interest that Salmond is given a fair hearing. I am more impressed everytime I hear this charismatic leader speak - remember he opposed the Iraq War as well, if only the other Scottish Politician in power had done the same, that might have stopped the murder.

[legslikeaspider]

Originally Posted by Lostboy

Salmond has proven the case for the break up of the Union. McConnel (sp?) was corrupt and hateful, so far Salmond has proven he is nothing but moderate, considerate and decent. It is in both Scotland's and England's interest that Salmond is given a fair hearing. I am more impressed everytime I hear this charismatic leader speak - remember he opposed the Iraq War as well, if only the other Scottish Politician in power had done the same, that might have stopped the murder.

Hurray! Lostboy's here!

[legslikeaspider]

Incidentally, did anybody catch Alex Salmond on Newsnight the other night where he agreed (and with a broad smile on his potato face) with Jeremy that England and Wales would be worse off without Scotland?

[JackSwan]

speaking as an englishman, i'd be very sorry to lose you.

[Boards]

What did he say before the grin? 'Yes, Jeremy, you fucking prick.'

[gothicform]

The fact that he was a senior financial advisor at RBS means almost nothing.

i would assume if forumers believe otherwise that they are all tory supporters as the tories have more wankers... i mean bankers, than any other party. only the SNP would parade a single banker around as proof of their economic competence.

im personally of the opinion scotland gets a better deal out of the union than england does but even that doesn't really mean the union should break up but i'd like things to remain and the union to stay. we're all one island this way and the scots who do support independence should remember, if they do vote for it and piss off the english they might not get very good terms. a successful independent scotland would be part based on this, and as post number 7 mentions very well, the england just need to sneeze to knock scotland's economy back 20 years.

the flaw of the nationalist argument i think is that they will act like utter cunts towards england and the union and then when they get independence expect people they have turned into enemies to be nice to them? in what world are these people living?

on another note, shall i ban lostboy from the scottish forum? i think it would be for the best.

[Boards]

Can we play with him for a while?

















Kidding, kidding, if you thinks its for the best I think you should. We mostly get along here so cant really be arsed with someone stirring up any trouble.

[Lostboy]

on another note, shall i ban lostboy from the scottish forum? i think it would be for the best.

If you ask me, I shall of course go, but I hardly think one comment of encouragement to my Scottish Friends here is in anyway extreme or uncalled for, far from it, but I've long given up trying to understand the motivation of many on this forum.

[gothicform]

ok then. im asking you not to post on the scottish forum. i dont think your presence is helpful

[architect-steve]

There is no case for breaking the union and making the UK weaker. I think in the future the west will face the threat of wars from the likes of Russia, China and Korea and I think its important that we remain together as we are much stronger. An Independent Scotland would only have an army of 10,000 instead of the 100,000 soldiers we have now.

I have always believed that being independant is not the answer but independent broadcasting stations 24/7 are what we need. Independance only comes up when we have to watch all the big football events through the eyes of English broadcasters who think everybody in the UK is English......

[Brilliant]

Independance only comes up when we have to watch all the big football events through the eyes of English broadcasters who think everybody in the UK is English......

Don't you want to watch "Becks" trademark freekicks?