#COMPLETED: THE TORCH, 84F Res, 338m (Dubai Marina)

[Dubai_Steve]

Originally Posted by Imre

You have got a great tenant !

Why, is he famous?

[micmonro1]

Originally Posted by foxy

Mackie this is a bit harsh. The person in question is of good character who is up against a greedy developer and a system that looks after it's own self interest in a totally unfair way.

Thanks Foxy (whoever you may be) to confirm my good character. I'm not going to waste on people who have not got the guts to provide their real identity when contacting me, let alone face SG in court.

When I attended the meeting I am the only person who brought my professional ID working for Her Majesty's Govt. My group trust and believe in me and SG are fully appraised of my qualifications and profession.

I am trying to help those who are helpless who are not armed with the information and legal background that I have. I guess SG didn't anticipate that a lawyer would buy in their development who is an officer of the Court and an officer of the law.

Lets get back to business ....
I am going to court and those who have guts I welcome.

[Imre]

Originally Posted by Dubai_Steve

Why, is he famous?

Not famous but a nice couple

[Hucons]

can someone help me to rent out my 2 bedrooms flat on 64 th floor. see view. in torch..... my email address is hucons@hotmail.com

[rbuster8]

Hi Mackie, you are quite wrong about micmonro. There is nothing 'worrying' about changing email addresses. Very smart actually. When micmonro says they "have a legalbackground" this is an understatement. Modesty prevails. micmonro is not "Another Bloody Armature".. Please,,,anyone considering taking legal action, don't be dissuaded by this rant. At least contact micmonro and listen to what they have to say.

Originally Posted by mackie1964

Another Bloody Armature

Legal background my A$$, it's worth nothing in Dubai.

Aren’t you the same person that was collecting names and apartments before for an owner group and then decided it was not good idea to join? I hope people are not stupid enough to give you their hard earned money to waste

You also seem to change your name from an email to another, very worrying indeed!

[markev]

rented out our 2-bed apt today 90.000 over 2 cheques
06 view mid- twentys through exclusive!

[mackie1964]

Originally Posted by rbuster8

Hi Mackie, you are quite wrong about micmonro. There is nothing 'worrying' about changing email addresses. Very smart actually. When micmonro says they "have a legalbackground" this is an understatement. Modesty prevails. micmonro is not "Another Bloody Armature".. Please,,,anyone considering taking legal action, don't be dissuaded by this rant. At least contact micmonro and listen to what they have to say.

Ok, If they are genuine, Apologies but, I am very wary of people asking other people for money only to support personal vendettas. Seen it before a few times with no result.

I am too and a few others I know going to take both Select Group and Select Property to court and will not let it go until we get our rights. Good luck and apologies again

Two pieces of advice for free:

UK legal experience is ok in the UK, US and to a degree South America. In the middle east it’s worth nothing despite the law being based on English/French ones. Most of Dubai Lawyers will tell you to Sign.

Like Al said before, you have to have an angle and think differently. If it’s only about LLP and service charges, you will go no where with those crooks.

Good Luck

[True Blue]

Any sign of this Torch roof feature coming to life?

[scoobudubai]

Originally Posted by mackie1964

Ok, If they are genuine, Apologies but, I am very wary of people asking other people for money only to support personal vendettas. Seen it before a few times with no result.

I am too and a few others I know going to take both Select Group and Select Property to court and will not let it go until we get our rights. Good luck and apologies again

Two pieces of advice for free:

UK legal experience is ok in the UK, US and to a degree South America. In the middle east it’s worth nothing despite the law being based on English/French ones. Most of Dubai Lawyers will tell you to Sign.

Like Al said before, you have to have an angle and think differently. If it’s only about LLP and service charges, you will go no where with those crooks.

Good Luck

hmmm..some people are sure gonna make a hella lot of money out of this...especially with clients being asked to pay £20k a pop!

[Imre]

Around 100 apartments already occupied or the moving in process,I think its good within few weeks only.

[iced]

Originally Posted by mackie1964

Ok, If they are genuine, Apologies but, I am very wary of people asking other people for money only to support personal vendettas. Seen it before a few times with no result.

I am too and a few others I know going to take both Select Group and Select Property to court and will not let it go until we get our rights. Good luck and apologies again

Two pieces of advice for free:

UK legal experience is ok in the UK, US and to a degree South America. In the middle east it’s worth nothing despite the law being based on English/French ones. Most of Dubai Lawyers will tell you to Sign.

Like Al said before, you have to have an angle and think differently. If it’s only about LLP and service charges, you will go no where with those crooks.

Good Luck

A couple of other points to add is that class action is not available in dubai. Thus all individuals must bring and file their own case.

Also even if a case is decided in your favour then it can be overturned on appeal. This has occured before.

Also even if 2 cases are identical then it is possible to have 2 different verdicts.

going to court is expensive and local lawyers AINT THAT GOOD!.

I would also say to others to be careful. For example there was a group of us who would submit money around 3k per property to a local law firm. In return there would be 3 test cases filed and we would granted access to the details via blog set up by the law firm.

I accepted that 3k aed for such info was worth it. A meeting for the group took place at the law firm. It was supposed to just for info but infact once at that meeting you had to decide whether you were in or out.

No blog of the test cases were ever set up and for me it was a cheap lesson as it only cost me 3k.

The other benefit of this method was that we got a small discount if we were to take legal action but legal action could only occur on an individual basis.

However we would need an expert witness and pay court fees. These would amount to around 80k AED. Of course if we won the we could get our moneyu and damages etc. However if we lost then we pay these fees plus the other party fees.

All the cases are dealt with in arabic and there are lots of confidentiality clauses etc.

It is a real nightmare and expensive and you need to be confident in your arabic and be prepared for frustration.

The point of this post is to be careful when people are asking money from you and the info provided may not be useful if you file (as an individual as you this is the only route). Test cases dont really have value for you legally although they maybe reassuring. Even arbitration is expensive!

the legal structure in dubai is very slow painful and uncertain. you have to certain that this is best path and determined. watch out for naive promises because the only certainity in dubai legal cases is that the lawyers get paid.

[Mistermark]

Originally Posted by iced

the only certainity in dubai legal cases is that the lawyers get paid.

That's certainly a given. The other, so far as I am aware, is that owners don't get compensated. Even in the handful of cases in which courts have found in favour of owners and developers have been obliged to pay up, I am not aware of any instances of the money actually being paid across.

My view of litigation or consulting lawyers in Dubai is this: find a friendly lawyer, give them some of your money, wave them goodbye. The effect is the same, but you save months or years of aggravation.

I know some people won't like what I say but if you want to make a developer in Dubai compliant, use their behaviour in the Western media to portray Dubai as a lawless s***hole where a complacent regulator and corrupt court system conspire to allow dodgy developers to rip buyers off and hence as a place where nobody can safely invest. If it works - and it might - there's at least a chance that the ruling elite will take umbrage at having been shown up by the developer's actions, and put it on a tight leash.

[mackie1964]

Originally Posted by Mistermark

That's certainly a given. The other, so far as I am aware, is that owners don't get compensated. Even in the handful of cases in which courts have found in favour of owners and developers have been obliged to pay up, I am not aware of any instances of the money actually being paid across.

My view of litigation or consulting lawyers in Dubai is this: find a friendly lawyer, give them some of your money, wave them goodbye. The effect is the same, but you save months or years of aggravation.

I know some people won't like what I say but if you want to make a developer in Dubai compliant, use their behaviour in the Western media to portray Dubai as a lawless s***hole where a complacent regulator and corrupt court system conspire to allow dodgy developers to rip buyers off and hence as a place where nobody can safely invest. If it works - and it might - there's at least a chance that the ruling elite will take umbrage at having been shown up by the developer's actions, and put it on a tight leash.

There are a couple of other ways and one of them will get some of those crooks into prison, more to report on this ................. soon

[Dubai_Steve]

Originally Posted by Mistermark

there's at least a chance that the ruling elite will take umbrage at having been shown up by the developer's actions, and put it on a tight leash.

I very much doubt that they would care about any corrupt actions of a single developer.

[Saint_]

Originally Posted by Mistermark

That's certainly a given. The other, so far as I am aware, is that owners don't get compensated. Even in the handful of cases in which courts have found in favour of owners and developers have been obliged to pay up, I am not aware of any instances of the money actually being paid across.

My view of litigation or consulting lawyers in Dubai is this: find a friendly lawyer, give them some of your money, wave them goodbye. The effect is the same, but you save months or years of aggravation.

I know some people won't like what I say but if you want to make a developer in Dubai compliant, use their behaviour in the Western media to portray Dubai as a lawless s***hole where a complacent regulator and corrupt court system conspire to allow dodgy developers to rip buyers off and hence as a place where nobody can safely invest. If it works - and it might - there's at least a chance that the ruling elite will take umbrage at having been shown up by the developer's actions, and put it on a tight leash.

Pretty much agree with this. I have said many times that the legal system in the UAE is totally deficient. Getting a result in court should not be dependent on securing the patronage of someone whose brother's hamster is a third cousin of a Sheikh's daughter's friend's pet. No-one will be able to persuade me that this is tradition or custom - it's plain old corruption.

Lawyers must read this forum and not believe their luck when they see Torch owners having exactly the same discussion as Point owners one year on. It'll be the same when Bay Central and Botanica are finished.

I wouldn't invest another cent in this country until the powers that be create a fair, just and reliable legal system. Imagine looking through your window at home whilst watching your neighbour steal your car. You then report this to the police who decide to do nothing about it. In fact they let the neighbour drive your car up and down the street all day. Who do you blame for allowing this to happen - the neighbour or the police?

[torchowner]

Originally Posted by Mistermark

That's certainly a given. The other, so far as I am aware, is that owners don't get compensated. Even in the handful of cases in which courts have found in favour of owners and developers have been obliged to pay up, I am not aware of any instances of the money actually being paid across.

My view of litigation or consulting lawyers in Dubai is this: find a friendly lawyer, give them some of your money, wave them goodbye. The effect is the same, but you save months or years of aggravation.

I know some people won't like what I say but if you want to make a developer in Dubai compliant, use their behaviour in the Western media to portray Dubai as a lawless s***hole where a complacent regulator and corrupt court system conspire to allow dodgy developers to rip buyers off and hence as a place where nobody can safely invest. If it works - and it might - there's at least a chance that the ruling elite will take umbrage at having been shown up by the developer's actions, and put it on a tight leash.

Totally agree with you. Just have a look at the images posted on The Point thread and start wondering when The Torch will start looking like that!

[Dubai_Steve]

Hopefully by appointing Emrill that will not be the case for the Torch as Emrill's excellent reputation will be at stake.

“Emrill’s proven experience and capabilities in providing high end service delivery will positively contribute towards the ongoing success of The Torch and provide long term asset protection for Torch investors.”

[micmonro1]

Originally Posted by iced

A couple of other points to add is that class action is not available in dubai. Thus all individuals must bring and file their own case.

Also even if a case is decided in your favour then it can be overturned on appeal. This has occured before.

Also even if 2 cases are identical then it is possible to have 2 different verdicts.

going to court is expensive and local lawyers AINT THAT GOOD!.

I would also say to others to be careful. For example there was a group of us who would submit money around 3k per property to a local law firm. In return there would be 3 test cases filed and we would granted access to the details via blog set up by the law firm.

I accepted that 3k aed for such info was worth it. A meeting for the group took place at the law firm. It was supposed to just for info but infact once at that meeting you had to decide whether you were in or out.

No blog of the test cases were ever set up and for me it was a cheap lesson as it only cost me 3k.

The other benefit of this method was that we got a small discount if we were to take legal action but legal action could only occur on an individual basis.

However we would need an expert witness and pay court fees. These would amount to around 80k AED. Of course if we won the we could get our moneyu and damages etc. However if we lost then we pay these fees plus the other party fees.

All the cases are dealt with in arabic and there are lots of confidentiality clauses etc.

It is a real nightmare and expensive and you need to be confident in your arabic and be prepared for frustration.

The point of this post is to be careful when people are asking money from you and the info provided may not be useful if you file (as an individual as you this is the only route). Test cases dont really have value for you legally although they maybe reassuring. Even arbitration is expensive!

the legal structure in dubai is very slow painful and uncertain. you have to certain that this is best path and determined. watch out for naive promises because the only certainity in dubai legal cases is that the lawyers get paid.

Iced, I take on board your points but allow me to clarify a few matters (free of charge):
1) It appears that you were given this advice by one law firm and we don't know when this was. I agree class action is not permitted but there is nothing preventing a group choosing one set of law firm thereby negotiating to reduce costs and demonstrating to SG that we are strong as a unit.
2) Dubai law is rapidly evolving and since 2007 there has been several important new legislation notably Resolution 6 of 2010. Don't forget there is imminent law due out this year which will allow RERA to categorise developers to regulate quality control, and their history with developments will very much influence this, amongst other matters ie regulations for handover, equal penalties for breach of obligations, developers to be penalised against committing fraud, penalties for delaying projects etc.
3) Lawyers in Dubai are no different to the way lawyers operate especially in their fees. If you take civil action in the UK and you lose, you have to pay the other side's costs. If you win, then the other side will have to pay your legal costs.
4) I have done my homework with many law firms for some time now and so I am sufficiently familiar in law firm's operation in Dubai, hence why I will be choosing the right firm to take firm steps with SG to achieve the desired outcome.
5) Dubai law is much simpler than English law and IT IS ENFORCEABLE contrary to what many 'forum goers' tell you. Those who bang on that legal action is fruitless, then the genuine investors need to be smart and make their informed choice not through this forum (who frankly are people deliberately placed to make adverse comments to confuse people and persuade them from taking a certain path)but by making their own enquiries.
6) Those who comment that legal action will only land you into throwing your money away, would you rather give that money to SG instead and then let them keep stitching you up because you will end up paying more in the long-term.
7) Any legal action/process is lengthy and frustrating even in the UK and I know this from working in the courts myself.
8) Arbitration costs are not as expensive as it is suggested 7000 AED (I have seen the costs schedule) but excluding lawyer's fee and can be concluded by around 6 months and it is conducted in English. If you are successful you will get your legal costs back.
Why would anyone think its not enforceable? What happens to individual's cheques if it bounces - they serve a jail sentence!
9) Any case can be over-turned on appeal but the higher court needs to have justification for its decision. Any case that is against SG or similar developer will be highly persuasive, just as signing the SPA and its addenda.
10)I have nothing against media action but legal action should not be ruled out as an effective method to obtain handover.

THIS MESSAGE IS FOR GENUINE INVESTORS WHO ARE YET TO MAKE AN INFORMED AND SMART CHOICE. I AM NOT DOING THIS OUT OF PERSONAL VENDETTA OR ANYTHING ELSE OTHER THAN MY MORAL DUTY TO HELP INNOCENT PEOPLE WHO HAVE BEEN LED UP THE GARDEN PATH (MYSELF INCLUDED).

YOU NEED TO BE STRONG, DETERMINED, DECISIVE, KNOWLEDGEABLE AND SHOW SG THAT YOU CAN STAND UP TO THEM. I KNOW SOMEONE WHO OWNS ANOTHER DEVELOPMENT WITH SG AS WELL AS THE TORCH WHO IS TAKING LEGAL ACTION AS THIS INDIVIDUAL HAS HAD ENOUGH OF SG'S TACTICS NOW.

IF YOU DON'T WISH TO JOIN ME WITH LEGAL ACTION THEN THAT IS YOUR CHOICE ENTIRELY BUT PLEASE WEIGH YOUR OPTIONS VERY CAREFULLY AS THESE ADDENDA ARE 'BAD FOR YOUR HEALTH'.

[torchowner]

Originally Posted by Dubai_Steve

Hopefully by appointing Emrill that will not be the case for the Torch as Emrill's excellent reputation will be at stake.

Even Emrill with their excellent reputation may find it very frustrating to maintain and service a building that has been built with the cheapest materials! Just have a look at the images posted on the Point thread. Even the peeling paint at the Point is the same as The Torch!

[scoobudubai]

Originally Posted by micmonro1

Iced, I take on board your points but allow me to clarify a few matters (free of charge):
1) It appears that you were given this advice by one law firm and we don't know when this was. I agree class action is not permitted but there is nothing preventing a group choosing one set of law firm thereby negotiating to reduce costs and demonstrating to SG that we are strong as a unit.
2) Dubai law is rapidly evolving and since 2007 there has been several important new legislation notably Resolution 6 of 2010. Don't forget there is imminent law due out this year which will allow RERA to categorise developers to regulate quality control, and their history with developments will very much influence this, amongst other matters ie regulations for handover, equal penalties for breach of obligations, developers to be penalised against committing fraud, penalties for delaying projects etc.
3) Lawyers in Dubai are no different to the way lawyers operate especially in their fees. If you take civil action in the UK and you lose, you have to pay the other side's costs. If you win, then the other side will have to pay your legal costs.
4) I have done my homework with many law firms for some time now and so I am sufficiently familiar in law firm's operation in Dubai, hence why I will be choosing the right firm to take firm steps with SG to achieve the desired outcome.
5) Dubai law is much simpler than English law and IT IS ENFORCEABLE contrary to what many 'forum goers' tell you. Those who bang on that legal action is fruitless, then the genuine investors need to be smart and make their informed choice not through this forum (who frankly are people deliberately placed to make adverse comments to confuse people and persuade them from taking a certain path)but by making their own enquiries.
6) Those who comment that legal action will only land you into throwing your money away, would you rather give that money to SG instead and then let them keep stitching you up because you will end up paying more in the long-term.
7) Any legal action/process is lengthy and frustrating even in the UK and I know this from working in the courts myself.
8) Arbitration costs are not as expensive as it is suggested 7000 AED (I have seen the costs schedule) but excluding lawyer's fee and can be concluded by around 6 months and it is conducted in English. If you are successful you will get your legal costs back.
Why would anyone think its not enforceable? What happens to individual's cheques if it bounces - they serve a jail sentence!
9) Any case can be over-turned on appeal but the higher court needs to have justification for its decision. Any case that is against SG or similar developer will be highly persuasive, just as signing the SPA and its addenda.
10)I have nothing against media action but legal action should not be ruled out as an effective method to obtain handover.

THIS MESSAGE IS FOR GENUINE INVESTORS WHO ARE YET TO MAKE AN INFORMED AND SMART CHOICE. I AM NOT DOING THIS OUT OF PERSONAL VENDETTA OR ANYTHING ELSE OTHER THAN MY MORAL DUTY TO HELP INNOCENT PEOPLE WHO HAVE BEEN LED UP THE GARDEN PATH (MYSELF INCLUDED).

YOU NEED TO BE STRONG, DETERMINED, DECISIVE, KNOWLEDGEABLE AND SHOW SG THAT YOU CAN STAND UP TO THEM. I KNOW SOMEONE WHO OWNS ANOTHER DEVELOPMENT WITH SG AS WELL AS THE TORCH WHO IS TAKING LEGAL ACTION AS THIS INDIVIDUAL HAS HAD ENOUGH OF SG'S TACTICS NOW.

IF YOU DON'T WISH TO JOIN ME WITH LEGAL ACTION THEN THAT IS YOUR CHOICE ENTIRELY BUT PLEASE WEIGH YOUR OPTIONS VERY CAREFULLY AS THESE ADDENDA ARE 'BAD FOR YOUR HEALTH'.

cost of arbitration ~ 5000k
COST OF APPOINTMENT OF ARBITRATOR ~ 50,000k

Also, we were informed by a very reputable and expensive lawyer that if you win, the amount of attorney fees awarded back will be a pittance, as has been generally observed in such cases. The arbitration costs should be awarded back if you win, and if you lose then it's a totally different matter...you pay (I think that is obvious?)!!

Don't believe any of the scavengers out there