Bos-Wash megalopolis expanding south; will Virginia become more Northern?

[vivo]

Do you think as the Bos-Wash megalopolis expands south (Richmond etc) will become as northern as, say Baltimore, or at least much more Northern?

There is the issue of transplants as well making the city less Southern.

[chicagogeorge]

How interconnected is Baltimore and Washington. Do people who live there consider it one metro (I know the census does)? How far is Richmond from Washington?

[modestproposal]

Originally Posted by chicagogeorge

How interconnected is Baltimore and Washington. Do people who live there consider it one metro (I know the census does)?

Although I struggle to see the relevance of this question I'll answer: People on the sides of the Metro (NoVa/Northeast MD) don't see it as one metro, but people in the middle do. The same is true of New York where Long Islanders don't consider Fairfield, CT or North Jersey to be a part of the same Metro Area. I mean how could they...those areas are over an hour away.

The cities are interconnected by commuter rail, an airport, multiple major highways, commuters and proximity. Development between them is complete except for the forest preserves along the Patuxent River.

[xzmattzx]

I don't see Baltimore and Washington as one metro. Clearly, the two cities themselves are independent from each other. The suburbs in between the two alng I-95 or along Route 29 or the Parkway (like Columbia or Laurel) can be considered as part of both metros. Like mentioned earlier, though, even many suburbs are suburbs of just one of the cities (like Towson with Baltimore or Bethesda with Washington DC).

As for the question, I don't really see the Bos-Wash megalopolis extending down to Richmond. Richmond is too far way from DC for intercommuting, and Virginia is too rural in between Arlington, Fairfax, etc and Richmond. Boston and Washington DC are connected because the cities are very important cities for certain industries (education or banking or government or whatever), and the cities are also connected by other cities large and medium (Like New York City, Philadelphia, and smaller cities like Providence, Trenton, Wilmington, etc). Richmond doesn't seem to be the national powerhouse city that Boston or Philadelphia or Baltimore is; if it were a much bigger city for commerce, then there would be demand to connect Richmond with the other cities like Baltimore and New York City.

[modestproposal]

Originally Posted by xzmattzx

I don't see Baltimore and Washington as one metro. Clearly, the two cities themselves are independent from each other. The suburbs in between the two alng I-95 or along Route 29 or the Parkway (like Columbia or Laurel) can be considered as part of both metros. Like mentioned earlier, though, even many suburbs are suburbs of just one of the cities (like Towson with Baltimore or Bethesda with Washington DC).

Even Bethesda and Towson have tons of commuters to the other city. If you lived in Columbia, Annapolis, Jessup, etc you'd know why this is really one elongated metro featuring two very different halfs. Ever travel 95, 29 or the Parkway during rush hour?

[krazeeboi]

Being that Richmond is quite Southern, it would take a while for the Bos-Wash sprawl reaching it to make it more Northern, IMO.

[urbanaturalist]

Baltimore-Washington is coming very close to being one metro area. The only missing link or maybe 2 or 3 missing links for making the people of the two metro areas more interactive and the travel more seamless is rail.

1)Expansion of the Green Line from Greenbelt station to BWI airport, which would link with the light rail into downtown Baltimore

2)Expansion of the Red Line from the Glenmont Station up to downtown Columbia, MD which would link with a rail link into Baltimore.

3)Proposed maglev train from DC to Baltimore, nonstop except maybe one stop at BWI

Richmond and the area between Richmond and DC will definitely grow and probably become more "Northern", whatever that means really. But its not the quantity of people that come, but the quality of how the built and non-built environment handles and provides for the people. So again, one of the most important infrastructure things that could be implemented is more rail.

Lastly, the area between Richmond, VA and Raleigh, NC along I-85 is also a space of land that could literally link Boston to Atlanta one day if done right (i.e. maglev train). I think a huge land conservation preserve should parallel I-85 nearby because it really is a great expanse of countryside and wilderness.

[xzmattzx]

Originally Posted by modestproposal

Even Bethesda and Towson have tons of commuters to the other city. If you lived in Columbia, Annapolis, Jessup, etc you'd know why this is really one elongated metro featuring two very different halfs. Ever travel 95, 29 or the Parkway during rush hour?

I have traveled on a couple of those highways during rush hour, and they're bad. Still, looking simply at commutes doesn't give the whole story; I know people that live in Delaware and commute to DC and people that live in Baltimore and commute as far as New York City. The entire area from New York City to Washington DC has become so interconnected that commuting from any place to any other place is feasible. But if you look at certain suburbs, you can see from other patterns that many suburbs in Maryland are more connected with one of the two cities. For instance, people in Bethesda are more likely to do their shopping for clothes or electronic devices, or go out to a nice restaurant, in the DC area rather than the Baltimore area. People in Owings Mills are going to do their shopping or dining in the Baltimore area. People in Columbia are probably equally inclined to go to Baltimore as they are to DC for things like that.

[NovaWolverine]

virginia is and will become more northern like, but richmond wont be a part of the megalopolis. politically it already is happening. richmond will become more liberal and slightly more northern b/c the growth of the megalopolis will have some sort of an impact on it. so megaopolis growth will be enough for a noticeable change in richmond but not enough for it to be a part of the bowash thing.

as for dc and baltimore, i'm confident that people that dont live in the area can't fully understand the relationship and connectivity. it's a unique one. they're different kinds of cities. no, they're not one, but they're very close. for example, my mom needed some small landscaping work done to a pond in the backyard. she was referred by an associate of hers from silver spring to a company that did similar work for her that operates out of baltimore. that kind of thing and similar service related jobs happen all the time. how often does that happen for chicago/milwaukee and nyc/philly? and nevermind the frequent trips people take between the two for leisure and non-working type stuff.

so even though the cities are different and not quite one, business and growth these days are such that the proximity of the two makes their joining into one inevitable. people that doubt the interconnectivity of balwash then go on and speak so high and anxious about tampa/orlando or chicago/milwaukee when bal/wash is only 38 miles, and forget that as crows fly nonsense.

[chicagogeorge]

Originally Posted by modestproposal

Although I struggle to see the relevance of this question I'll answer:.

You don't? Quite simply if people from Baltimore and Washington do not feel interconnected, or being part of one metro, than how would Richmond become more northern or more connected to BoWash?

I'm glad you answered me though

Originally Posted by modestproposal

The same is true of New York where Long Islanders don't consider Fairfield, CT or North Jersey to be a part of the same Metro Area. I mean how could they...those areas are over an hour away.

Well I'm not sure about NYC's suburbs, I do know that people in far south suburban Will county, and Kankakee, are an hour away from northern suburbs like in Lake and in Kenosha counties all feel as if they are part of Chicagoland. Hell, I've even heard people in Rockford say they are Chicagoland, and they are 60 miles from downtown Chicago.

[hudkina]

Considering that Washington's exurban sprawl has already reached Fredericksburg and Richmond's exurban sprawl has already reached Ashland, the stretch is only about 30 miles between "developed areas", and with "Fort AP Hill Millitary Reservation" between the two there is the potential for an economy to "grow" between them.

And on the other side, you have Richmond's exurban sprawl merging with Norfolk's exurban sprawl along the I-64 corridor.

So you could potentially see the Northeastern ammalgamation of adjacent urban areas spread as far south as Virginia Beach eventually.

[triadcat]

Originally Posted by vivo

Do you think as the Bos-Wash megalopolis expands south (Richmond etc) will become as northern as, say Baltimore, or at least much more Northern?

There is the issue of transplants as well making the city less Southern.

Gawd, I hope not. But I think it is already happening.
Virginia is not the same as it used to be.
Too much sprawl all over the place.......

[Xusein]

I don't see it either...Richmond is still pretty far from DC for much commuting to take place. But, the high cost of living in DC has made many people move to the area, so it may happen in the future.

The problem however is the lack of a "large" metro in Virginia. Yes, Hampton Roads and Richmond are obviously not small places, but the entire reason why there is a Megalopolis in the first place is because of the large cities anchoring each other...you go from DC to Baltimore to Philly, and so on.

If Richmond and the rest of that area in Virginia become part of the corridor because of sprawl, it may have more in common with the New Hampshire-NE Mass area north of Boston, after some sprawl and urbanity, then nothing else.

Even if so, I don't see the entire state of Virginia losing it's Southern flair anytime soon.

[samsonyuen]

How about North? Are there any communities that are about to become part of the BosWash?

[Stuck in Bama]

I think its just a case of Virginia slowly shedding for better or worse it "Southern" image of the past into a more "Northern" image for the future. Johnny Reb may be seeing his last days in the commonwealth.

On the other hand seeing a megalopolis starting at the Richmond/Petersburg Metro area would not be greatest thing in the world.

[vivo]

Originally Posted by samsonyuen

How about North? Are there any communities that are about to become part of the BosWash?

lot of balt, dc, and I think nyc commuters in PA. I know York and Adams co may be part of the balt msa in 2010 census. 30 floors up thinks so. although i don't know if it's already considered a part of the megalopolis. not sure if bo wash megalopolis = the combined msa's of the major cities. york and maybe adams co are in the york msa but not sure if it's part of the bos wash megalopolis.

[Shawn]

I'm still not sold on Boston-Providence being a real integral part of the Megalopolis; there's just too much empty space between Worcester and Springfield and between Providence's southern burbs and New London. Driving down I-95 in Washington Co, RI and New London Co, CT really illustrates this.

[Xusein]

I do get what you're saying.

NE CT, Central Mass, and RI outside Providence is downright rural. When I'm going southwest to New York, it's almost like uninterrupted suburban and urban development everywhere. On the other hand, it gets rural real quick when you are going east, either to Boston, or Rhode Island.

By the time you get to CT-Mass border on I-84...you may as well be in the middle of nowhere.

I don't expect to change anytime in the future, growth in that area isn't that fast, and there are lots of NIMBYs.

[Golden Age]

Originally Posted by TenRot

Even if so, I don't see the entire state of Virginia losing it's Southern flair anytime soon.

If any Southern state were to go "blue" at the moment, it would be Virginia.

The last two governors have been Democrats (and widely popular). Governor Warner was even viewed as a presidential contender for quite some time (and he might yet make a good vice president). Also, Virginia proved to be the kingmaker for the Democrats in the last Senatorial race where Senator Webb (with his son being in Iraq and all) won against all odds. The Republican senator Warner is also known to be one of the key moderate political forces on Capitol Hill.

What do these voting patterns tell us? There are a lot of swing voters in the state of Va and no longer do gay rights issues prove to be vital for electoral success. People simply vote for whom they think will do the job best and not the candidate who most closely sticks to his party's politics.

What does this mean for the presidential race? Va probably won't go blue (yet), but it can't be considered a "dark red" state by any means.

[Golden Age]

Originally Posted by NovaWolverine

virginia is and will become more northern like, but richmond wont be a part of the megalopolis.

Richmond may indeed become a "Southern island" as places south of Richmond like Charlottesville and Williamsburg effectively being quality-of-life havens for Northern retirees. Especially the big state universities (UVA, W&M) are attracting mostly students from NoVa and also the Northeast (especially NJ, NY, MD). The area around Norfolk and Va Beach on the other hand is in tight control of the Navy and therefore it's own little world.