daily menu » rate the banner | guess the city | one on oneforums map | privacy policy | DMCA | news magazine | posting guidelines

Go Back   SkyscraperCity > Infrastructure and Mobility Forums > Highways & Autobahns

Highways & Autobahns All about automobility



Global Announcement

As a general reminder, please respect others and respect copyrights. Go here to familiarize yourself with our posting policy.


Reply

 
Thread Tools
Old January 8th, 2009, 09:40 PM   #181
Furet
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Posts: 81
Likes (Received): 1

Quote:
Originally Posted by Timon91 View Post
Never learned that, really! Quite weird, it seems like it has enough historic value to teach it to Dutch school kids, but I have never heard of it, until now.
It's also one of the main reasons why Ireland never developed an industrial base, a left wing political movement (most of the potential working class all died), and pushed for independence from Britain with growing intensity as the 19th century progressed. But this isn't a history forum

Last edited by Furet; January 8th, 2009 at 09:45 PM.
Furet no está en línea   Reply With Quote

Sponsored Links
Old January 8th, 2009, 09:53 PM   #182
ardmacha
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 112
Likes (Received): 1

This post deleted in protest against politically biased moderation.

Keep politics out of the roads forum.

Last edited by ardmacha; March 27th, 2010 at 04:39 AM.
ardmacha no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old January 9th, 2009, 03:04 AM   #183
geogregor
Registered User
 
geogregor's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: London
Posts: 15,522
Likes (Received): 19160

Thanks for all the ADT's guys.
Some of them higher than I expected.
So how many vehicles are registered in Ireland? So I can work out number or vehicles per capita.

I'm impressed by scale of road improvement schemes going on in Ireland at the moment.
M9 might be quiet now but it will improve safety and also help to develop south-east of Ireland in the future. Traffic volumes will rise sooner than some might expect.
M6 is also not very busy.
That's what I like about building motorways in Ireland. NRA went ahead with full-on big program even if they could use cheaper temporary half-solutions.
I'm really annoyed by all this half profile expressways which we build in Poland. They will have to be widened almost as soon as they are finished in some cases (S1 to Katowice airport is prime example)

I also realised big difference between south and north of Ireland. I don't mean the usual political division.
For me the division is M6. Almost all the big projects are south of the line between Dublin and Galway.
M6, M7, M8, M9, Wateford bypass (M25), Limerick southern bypass, and to some extent M11
North of that is just M1 on the east coast and short commuter motorways projects (like M3)
Is there any plan for long distance motorways going north-west from Dublin towards Derry, Donegal or Sligo? I mean something sooner than 20 years.
Maybe traffic volumes are not there yet but such road would help to develop this part of country. I guess it is not the richest part of Ireland at the moment.

One more question. How about junction on the approach to Dublin airport? Is it included in the M50 program? As far as I remember there was at grade roundabout. Is it going to be free flow junction?

One more thing. More pictures please
geogregor está en línea ahora   Reply With Quote
Old January 9th, 2009, 12:23 PM   #184
Furet
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Posts: 81
Likes (Received): 1

Quote:
Originally Posted by geogregor View Post
I also realised big difference between south and north of Ireland. I don't mean the usual political division.
For me the division is M6. Almost all the big projects are south of the line between Dublin and Galway.
That has a lot to do with population. Much of the west and north-west is extremely sparcely populated, and has no cities.

Quote:
M6, M7, M8, M9, Wateford bypass (M25), Limerick southern bypass, and to some extent M11
Unfortunately we've discovered on boards.ie that the Waterford Bypass will open as an N road, without motorway restrictions.

Quote:
Is there any plan for long distance motorways going north-west from Dublin towards Derry, Donegal or Sligo? I mean something sooner than 20 years.
I think there is talk of an M2 between Dublin and Derry, but nothing definite. In the current economic climate it's not likely to happen for a long time. As for Donegal and Sligo, these come into the "Atlantlic Corridor's" scope - a plan to link Donegal to Waterford via Sligo, Galway, Limerick and Cork. This involves an upgrade of:
- the N15;
- N17 (plus creation of a section of M17);
- an M18 between Galway and Limerick -- 70% of which is either open or under construction, awaiting motorway redesignation approval, due any day now;
- Construction of an M20 motorway between Cork and Limerick at advanced planning stage (route selection and public consultation complete;
- Upgrades to the N25 between Cork and Waterford.

Cork to Galway will definitely be motorway under this plan. The rest is an open question. Personally I would not like to see a motorway in Donegal. The population simply does not justify it.
Furet no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old January 9th, 2009, 02:44 PM   #185
ardmacha
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 112
Likes (Received): 1

Quote:
Personally I would not like to see a motorway in Donegal. The population simply does not justify it.
yet Co Donegal has a significantly bigger population than Co Waterford, albeit without a single large centre. Derry is such a centre.

The political division also contributes to a transport division, just look at a rail map of Ireland and now the motorway map of Ireland.
ardmacha no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old January 9th, 2009, 09:05 PM   #186
Furet
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Posts: 81
Likes (Received): 1

Quote:
Originally Posted by ardmacha View Post
yet Co Donegal has a significantly bigger population than Co Waterford, albeit without a single large centre.
That makes all the difference: A population living in thousands of one-off houses that should never have been built to begin with, along with little villages/small towns so widely dispersed that it becomes impossible to supply proper, meaningful services, including transport. I am in favour of improving routes, or realigning, but in my opinion a motorway in Donegal would be utter madness.
Furet no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old January 9th, 2009, 10:45 PM   #187
ardmacha
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 112
Likes (Received): 1

This post deleted in protest against politically biased moderation.

Keep politics out of the roads forum.

Last edited by ardmacha; March 27th, 2010 at 04:40 AM.
ardmacha no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old January 10th, 2009, 02:12 AM   #188
geogregor
Registered User
 
geogregor's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: London
Posts: 15,522
Likes (Received): 19160

Quote:
Originally Posted by Furet View Post
That has a lot to do with population. Much of the west and north-west is extremely sparcely populated, and has no cities.
But as someone mentioned above population of the whole region is not that small. I didn't mean just Donegal co. but whole north west.
Motorway don't have to connect just one big city to another. It connects regions as well.

Quote:
Unfortunately we've discovered on boards.ie that the Waterford Bypass will open as an N road, without motorway restrictions.
But "High Quality Dual Carriageway" in Ireland is almost the same like motorway. Slightly lower speed limit and narrower emergency lanes. I don't have fetish of “blue motorway signs”. This bypass will be good quality.
Many bigger Polish cities would kill for such bypass

Quote:
I Personally I would not like to see a motorway in Donegal. The population simply does not justify it.
Again, it's not just about population. Otherwise there would be no freeways in Wyoming or North Dakota.
Apart from connecting existing population centres motorways also create development in poor regions. I think motorway (or just dual carriageway) would help with development of the region.

Many people on Irish forum say about end of road construction due to the economic crisis. It doesn't have to happen. Government can use big infrastructure projects to stimulate economy. As residential and commercial constructions are halting building infrastructure might provide jobs for unemployed builders.
Government can also get better deals as companies offer lover prices in difficult times. And then when good times come back you have infrastructure which can cope with growth.
It is good time to build roads now. A lot of useful infrastructure in USA was build during great depression by.
How much higher unemployment would be now if not existing road projects?
geogregor está en línea ahora   Reply With Quote
Old January 10th, 2009, 04:20 PM   #189
nordisk celt83
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Oslo, Norway and Enniskerry, Wicklow
Posts: 1,060
Likes (Received): 57

Quote:
Originally Posted by geogregor View Post
Many people on Irish forum say about end of road construction due to the economic crisis. It doesn't have to happen. Government can use big infrastructure projects to stimulate economy. As residential and commercial constructions are halting building infrastructure might provide jobs for unemployed builders.
Government can also get better deals as companies offer lover prices in difficult times. And then when good times come back you have infrastructure which can cope with growth.
It is good time to build roads now. A lot of useful infrastructure in USA was build during great depression by.
How much higher unemployment would be now if not existing road projects?

Very true, lets hope the government have the foresight to continue investing in public construction at a time when the private sector of the industry is contributing to the country's economic woes and increasing unemployment numbers.


Re: my post on landscaping earlier that got a few responses. Just to say, while I think the landscaping leaves a little to be desired, I don't think it's of immediate importance. Perhaps something to spend money on 5 or 10 years down the line. A bit of tree planting along the verges wouldn't go a miss!
nordisk celt83 no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old January 10th, 2009, 07:09 PM   #190
Furet
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Posts: 81
Likes (Received): 1

Quote:
Originally Posted by geogregor View Post
But "High Quality Dual Carriageway" in Ireland is almost the same like motorway. Slightly lower speed limit and narrower emergency lanes. I don't have fetish of “blue motorway signs”. This bypass will be good quality.
We know that it will be of good quality. The problem with no motorway restrictions is a) that many agricultural vehicles will use the road, and b) more importantly, without the protection of motorway designation, many inappropriate shopping/industrial developments will likely occur along the route, which will congest and clog it up. The very same thing has happened to Cork City's equivalent - the South Ring Road section of the N25. Many sliproads there are static because of traffic jams; and traffic is notoriously heavy because of people trying to access these developments that have no public transport links.

As for Donegal, I think you underestimate just how dispersed the settlement there is. A comparison with US flyover states isn't helpful, because there are major cities at either end of those American highways. There aren't in Donegal. It will never happen anyway.


Quote:
A lot of useful infrastructure in USA was build during great depression by.
How much higher unemployment would be now if not existing road projects?
I agree that we should invest in infrastructure during hard economic times, and the government says that it will continue to deliver the big projects. Many believe, however, that they are lying.

Last edited by Furet; January 10th, 2009 at 07:14 PM.
Furet no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old January 10th, 2009, 08:18 PM   #191
sotonsi
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 5,557

Quote:
Originally Posted by Furet View Post
We know that it will be of good quality. The problem with no motorway restrictions is ...b) more importantly, without the protection of motorway designation, many inappropriate shopping/industrial developments will likely occur along the route, which will congest and clog it up. The very same thing has happened to Cork City's equivalent - the South Ring Road section of the N25. Many sliproads there are static because of traffic jams; and traffic is notoriously heavy because of people trying to access these developments that have no public transport links.
Motorway status wouldn't stop those developments, a decent set of planning laws would!
sotonsi no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old January 10th, 2009, 09:24 PM   #192
Furet
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Posts: 81
Likes (Received): 1

Quote:
Originally Posted by sotonsi View Post
Motorway status wouldn't stop those developments, a decent set of planning laws would!
We have no decent planning laws in Ireland. In theory, a motorway classification in Ireland gives the National Roads Authority far more power to resist, oppose or veto a development than mere N-road classification.
Furet no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old January 10th, 2009, 09:27 PM   #193
ChrisZwolle
Road user
 
ChrisZwolle's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Zwolle
Posts: 43,603
Likes (Received): 19390

Quote:
Originally Posted by sotonsi View Post
Motorway status wouldn't stop those developments, a decent set of planning laws would!
Yes indeed. You read that kind of crap too on wikipedia that freeway construction spur the development of suburbs... It's still the city/county/regional government that decides to build suburbs.
ChrisZwolle está en línea ahora   Reply With Quote
Old January 11th, 2009, 02:52 AM   #194
geogregor
Registered User
 
geogregor's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: London
Posts: 15,522
Likes (Received): 19160

Quote:
Originally Posted by Furet View Post
In theory, a motorway classification in Ireland gives the National Roads Authority far more power to resist, oppose or veto a development than mere N-road classification.
I didn't hear about that. How far from motorway NRA influences reaches? And what does it mean? Can they block developments which are not directly joined to junctions? I doubt it. It would be very unusual. I never heard about such law in any country. Local authorities have always say about local planing.
If something doesn't affect safety, by obstruction view for example, road authorities don't have much to say about land use next to motorway or road corridor apart from narrow strip of land where they can block advertising posters for example.

Quote:
As for Donegal, I think you underestimate just how dispersed the settlement there is. A comparison with US flyover states isn't helpful, because there are major cities at either end of those American highways. There aren't in Donegal. It will never happen anyway.
Motorway could terminate somewhere between Derry and Letterkenny, seving both of them as well as all rural Donegal. It would increase tourism and development.

Of course I-80 in Wyoming connects Chicago with San Francisco and I-90 and I-94 in Dakotas connect Chicago with Seattle. But most of the traffic is much more local. I don't know exact statistics but long distance traffic is probably in minority. Very few people drive such distances.
But they would drive from Dublin to Donegal more often if it was easier accessible.
Such road would also integrated better both countries.
I heard there are some plans wit upgrading A5 and roads from A5 to Dublin. On what stage are they? Is it likely to happen? Is it just upgrade of existing road or new motorways or at least DC?

Edit.
I know number of cars per capita in Ireland.
It is 542.
In UK corresponding number is 426.
Quite big difference

Last edited by geogregor; January 11th, 2009 at 03:29 AM.
geogregor está en línea ahora   Reply With Quote
Old January 12th, 2009, 03:55 AM   #195
geogregor
Registered User
 
geogregor's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: London
Posts: 15,522
Likes (Received): 19160

I continue my research of Irish infrastructure so I have few more questions:

1.Is there border plaza on new N1/A1 between Dundalk and Newry? Does M1 reach all the way to the border or is it DC north of Dundalk?
2.How about II Phase of motorway redesignation? When is it going to happen? Does anyone have list of new motorways? Is Athlone bypass included?
3.M50/N3 junction. If I understood correct (browsing Sabre) there were still designing this junction. Is final project ready? Did construction start?

I checked all the maps of Ireland available here in UK and none shows redesignated motorways so far. With all this legal changes and also due to fast construction mapmakers can't keep up with all the changes
geogregor está en línea ahora   Reply With Quote
Old January 12th, 2009, 06:27 PM   #196
spacetweek
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Dublin
Posts: 839
Likes (Received): 259

In response to your question about the A5 in Northern Ireland, this road is due to start construction in 2013. More information here.

With a link to the future dual carriageway network of Donegal, this road would serve Donegal quite well.

In relation to planning laws, there is no specific distance from a motorway that the NRA will object to, however if they think that the development would "damage the motorway's ability to carry traffic" they can veto (forbid) the development. This has happened in the past - in particular, County Clare Council got very angry about 2 years ago when the NRA blocked a lot of developments they were planning. I agree with the NRA here.

Quote:
Originally Posted by geogregor View Post
I continue my research of Irish infrastructure so I have few more questions:

1.Is there border plaza on new N1/A1 between Dundalk and Newry? Does M1 reach all the way to the border or is it DC north of Dundalk?
2.How about II Phase of motorway redesignation? When is it going to happen? Does anyone have list of new motorways? Is Athlone bypass included?
3.M50/N3 junction. If I understood correct (browsing Sabre) there were still designing this junction. Is final project ready? Did construction start?

I checked all the maps of Ireland available here in UK and none shows redesignated motorways so far. With all this legal changes and also due to fast construction mapmakers can't keep up with all the changes
The border plaza on the A1 was removed more than a decade ago. The road is DC from north of Dundalk.
The second set of redesignations is due to come in around March 2009. The Athlone bypass is included, though I think it needs rebuilding to be a proper motorway. Some of the roads in the list might not be included in the final list.
The M50/N3 junction began construction around Autumn 2008. It is a big project and will probably not be finished until 2010. They made a number of changes to the design over the years.

Yes, maps of Ireland are usually published by British mapmakers and are full of errors. Very few motorways in Ireland are marked as motorways in those maps. The best site to get the most up-to-date information is Open Street Map. I encourage you to use the map of Ireland on that site as it is always correct and up to date. It will be interesting to see what it looks like in March 2009.

---------------
http://www.ideasforcheapstuff.com/in...s/current.html
spacetweek no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old January 12th, 2009, 09:34 PM   #197
Chris_533976
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Posts: 210
Likes (Received): 27

And because there are some very sad people who stay up on the night of a new motorway opening to add it to OpenStreetMap

Rural road coverage, even the cities, is terrible on OSM, but the motorways on it are by far the best.
Chris_533976 no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old January 13th, 2009, 03:06 AM   #198
geogregor
Registered User
 
geogregor's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: London
Posts: 15,522
Likes (Received): 19160

Quote:
Originally Posted by spacetweek View Post
In relation to planning laws, there is no specific distance from a motorway that the NRA will object to, however if they think that the development would "damage the motorway's ability to carry traffic" they can veto (forbid) the development. This has happened in the past - in particular, County Clare Council got very angry about 2 years ago when the NRA blocked a lot of developments they were planning. I agree with the NRA here.
Can NRA object and veto developments alongside DC as well? Or just alongside the motorways?

By the way, thanks for all the answers.

I've seen Open Street Map but I just like to have old fashioned paper map. As I work in a map shop I will monitor all the latest publications
geogregor está en línea ahora   Reply With Quote
Old January 13th, 2009, 03:36 PM   #199
spacetweek
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Dublin
Posts: 839
Likes (Received): 259

Quote:
Originally Posted by geogregor View Post
Can NRA object and veto developments alongside DC as well? Or just alongside the motorways?

By the way, thanks for all the answers.

I've seen Open Street Map but I just like to have old fashioned paper map. As I work in a map shop I will monitor all the latest publications
They can object to any development beside a National Road (begins with N, e.g. N1, N2, N3 etc).

Do you live in London? I would try to get hold of an Irish map of Ireland, e.g. the one produced by OSI, "Complete Road Atlas of Ireland".
spacetweek no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old January 13th, 2009, 05:05 PM   #200
sotonsi
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 5,557

The problem with any map of Ireland is that it's rather difficult to keep up with the construction and reclassification.
sotonsi no está en línea   Reply With Quote


Reply

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Related topics on SkyscraperCity


All times are GMT +2. The time now is 08:14 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11 Beta 4
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
Feedback Buttons provided by Advanced Post Thanks / Like (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2018 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.

vBulletin Optimisation provided by vB Optimise (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2018 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.

SkyscraperCity ☆ In Urbanity We trust ☆ about us | privacy policy | DMCA policy

tech management by Sysprosium