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Old May 14th, 2009, 11:05 PM   #281
ardmacha
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This post deleted in protest against politically biased moderation.

Keep politics out of the roads forum.

Last edited by ardmacha; March 27th, 2010 at 04:48 AM.
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Old May 15th, 2009, 01:58 AM   #282
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Guys, I know your posting here cause this is Irish Roads thread but if you could also post your brilliant pics and info in the Irish motorway thread in the Irish forum that would be great

http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=726678




It's just we do have our own forum and I hate to see it being bypassed

(pardon the pun!)
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Old May 15th, 2009, 02:20 AM   #283
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odlum is it ok to post pics of the dual carriageways into the motorway section? Some of these are up for motorway redesignations but wont be confirmed until the summer.

Last edited by transport21; May 15th, 2009 at 03:01 AM.
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Old May 15th, 2009, 04:45 AM   #284
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Quote:
Originally Posted by transport21 View Post
odlum is it ok to post pics of the dual carriageways into the motorway section? Some of these are up for motorway redesignations but wont be confirmed until the summer.
Of course - I understand and know the routes. Please I hope you do.

Some of the pics are fantastic but missing from the Irish forum.
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Old May 17th, 2009, 01:16 AM   #285
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Napoleon changed from the Roman thing of driving on the left, and places like the US flipped over just to annoy the UK.

Only kidding - something about long distance stagecoaches and whipping. As the UK is an island, we didn't need these bigger coaches to travel 1000s of miles, so had no reason to change, nor any reason to change since, given that there is no land borders with anyone except RoI (who I'm surprised didn't change, after all, they seem to love making the road network different to the UKs - different lines, semi-new world signage (rather than european), km rather than miles).

Cost of conversion to right hand driving for the UK would be in the hundreds of billions (and rather a lot for Ireland, especially annoying as most of the roads that would have to change the geometry of are less than 10 years old) - so not worth it (changing the UK roads to metric signage would be pushing £50 billion, or take about 30 years and still cost a shedload to deal with speed limits)

Note that Japan and Indonesia, as well as various former UK colonies also drive on the left. These are big countries, that we didn't colonise, that do it 'UK style'.
Great post with lots of good points. I think in the case of IRL changing to RHS driving though, this is on a totally different level to having different signage/measurements. It would provide zero benefit, in fact it would create lots of problems with NI/Republic traffic getting confused. Also in 2007 we only just opened the new A1/N1 south of Newry, which is a HQDC, necessitating a costly dual-standard traffic switchover which would need an overbridge. So there is no way we will ever do this and it has never even been considered.

However I must dispute your metrication figure - there is no way it could possibly cost £50 Billion, I presume this should be million. In any case you'd be mad to convert it all at the same time. A piecemeal approach would have it completed in 20 years (speed limits excepted).

Finally, driving on the left is far more common worldwide than people seem to think. So there's nothing unusual about it and most countries that need to change have already done it. The only major exception I can think of is Burma/Myanmar, which used to drive on the left but changed in the 1920s to the right, despite sharing the majority of their very long border with left-driving countries. This was done for political reasons - they shared a border with right-driving China and wanted to ally themselves with the Chinese. The Indians, Laotians and Thais weren't considered important seemingly.

Another candidate for eventually changing is British Guyana in South America, though apparently there are hardly any cars in that part of the world so I'm sure it's a non-issue right now.

Last edited by spacetweek; May 17th, 2009 at 01:21 AM.
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Old May 17th, 2009, 01:35 AM   #286
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Here are pics of the M9 that I took last summer shortly after the Carlow Bypass section opened:
image hosted on flickr


image hosted on flickr


image hosted on flickr


image hosted on flickr


image hosted on flickr


And here are pictures of a newly-upgraded section of the M50 taken a few days ago

image hosted on flickr


image hosted on flickr


image hosted on flickr


This picture shows a short 11-laned section:

image hosted on flickr


image hosted on flickr
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Old May 17th, 2009, 09:49 AM   #287
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Quote:
Originally Posted by spacetweek View Post
However I must dispute your metrication figure - there is no way it could possibly cost £50 Billion, I presume this should be million. In any case you'd be mad to convert it all at the same time. A piecemeal approach would have it completed in 20 years (speed limits excepted).
I did say £50billion, or 30 years - 20 years is replacing signs a bit more than frequently, and what's funny is that there are still quite a few pre-63 signs all around the UK.

As for speed limits, there must be millions of signs that would need changing - say 10 million (after all, repeaters). Lets say that they cost an average of £100 (after all you'd also need new poles, as you can't take the old signs down) - there's a billion. Another few hundred million, if not more to employ several thousand people to erect the new signs/dismantle the old signs and also play about with covers over a couple of days (are there that many people who are trained to do it)? Add to that another few hundred million for a Public Information Film. You are looking at at least £2billion for speed limits alone, with fairly vague figures. £50 million is a joke and wouldn't even pay for stickers for all the speed limit signs. Metrification of UK roads is a toss up between time (if you want it in less than 30 years the costs increase) and money. It is also in the order of tens of billions (metric signs cost more, as are bigger, due to having two sets of numbers), rather than the order of tens of millions.
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Old May 17th, 2009, 12:30 PM   #288
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Quote:
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Here are pics of the M9 that I took last summer shortly after the Carlow Bypass section opened:
image hosted on flickr
MASSIVE signage poles for a small sign on the right
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Old May 17th, 2009, 02:31 PM   #289
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A bit too large to play cricket with, unfortunately
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Some of my photoseries: Northern Ireland, Prague, Boston, Alaska part 1, 2, 3, Smoggy Moscow, Warsaw, Wrocław, Kiev, Donetsk, Odessa and Chişinău.
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Old May 20th, 2009, 06:35 PM   #290
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris_533976 View Post
MASSIVE signage poles for a small sign on the right
Not sure but I think that's a temporary sign awaiting the extension of the motorway. The long poles will be needed for the permanent sign.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sotonsi View Post
As for speed limits, there must be millions of signs that would need changing - say 10 million (after all, repeaters). Lets say that they cost an average of £100 (after all you'd also need new poles, as you can't take the old signs down) - there's a billion. Another few hundred million, if not more to employ several thousand people to erect the new signs/dismantle the old signs and also play about with covers over a couple of days (are there that many people who are trained to do it)? Add to that another few hundred million for a Public Information Film. You are looking at at least £2billion for speed limits alone, with fairly vague figures. £50 million is a joke and wouldn't even pay for stickers for all the speed limit signs. Metrification of UK roads is a toss up between time (if you want it in less than 30 years the costs increase) and money. It is also in the order of tens of billions (metric signs cost more, as are bigger, due to having two sets of numbers), rather than the order of tens of millions.
I trust your numbers as you clearly know a lot more about this than me, so if what you quote here is accurate, this is ruled out on cost grounds.

But I've a few things I want to pull you up on -
On the Sabre discussion group, someone estimated that there are 200,000 speed limits signs in the UK, not 10 million.
Why would you not use the old poles , I don't see why you wouldn't just take the old signs down
Finally, the metric signs aren't bigger - you wouldn't be putting two sets of numbers on them, just the one (metric) figure. You cannot have dual readout speed limits.
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Old May 20th, 2009, 07:14 PM   #291
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Quote:
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But I've a few things I want to pull you up on -
On the Sabre discussion group, someone estimated that there are 200,000 speed limits signs in the UK, not 10 million.
Just because it's on SABRE doesn't mean it's true.

Then again, it's probably more accurate - I plucked a number out of thin air for both the number of signs and the cost - to make the maths easier. I still stand by my figure of £2billion, as that is what I remembered that discussion on SABRE worked out as a rough cost. I did not remember the specifics. A sign won't cost £100 - more like £1000 with the cost of labour to fit it, do the changeover and remove the old signs.
Quote:
Why would you not use the old poles , I don't see why you wouldn't just take the old signs down
because you cannot have some speed limit signs in mph and some in km/h - massive confusion and nothing is legally binding for the year you spend putting up signs. Massively dangerous. Ireland did it by putting up signs, covering them, and then switching the covers and finally removing the old signs. You have to change the country round overnight (and probably block the roads = large economic cost as well) - like you said, you can't have two systems running at the same time - switching covers takes less time, though you'd still need a massive workforce to do it. The UK is much bigger, and much busier than the RoI, so much so that changing the covers on speed limit signs over the course of a week would need a large workforce.
Quote:
Finally, the metric signs aren't bigger - you wouldn't be putting two sets of numbers on them, just the one (metric) figure. You cannot have dual readout speed limits.
I was thinking distance signs with two sets of numbers - it would be confusing to have a mix of units - on one sign Newcastle is 50, then on the next it's 25, then it's 35 or something - very confusing, but not so to have both units, as you can look at one or the other. Speed limits in km/h and mph would most definitely be a mistake - I talk about that above when discussing the handover and poles and so on. Irish km/h signs have km/h on them, as well as a number, and IIRC are slightly bigger because of this.
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Old May 24th, 2009, 12:30 AM   #292
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From the Araglin Road overbridge looking south


Junction 13 overbridge, looking north


View south from Junction 13 overbridge



ADS for Junction 13


Towards Junction 13, looking north


Completed Fermoy Bypass tie-in



The M8 through demesne parkland, at junction 14


Junction 14 onslip


Looking towards Junction 14
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Old May 24th, 2009, 12:31 AM   #293
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Junction 14 northbound onslip


Carrigane Tie-in



Junction 12, looking south


From the R665 overbridge looking north


From the Araglin Road overbridge looking north


From the R665 overbridge looking south



The R665 overbridge

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Old May 24th, 2009, 02:57 AM   #294
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wow - nice scenery! Thanks. The motorway looks really well landscaped.
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Old May 24th, 2009, 03:04 AM   #295
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It has been superbly landcaped. In my opinion this is not only the nicest M8 section, but the nicest section of any motorway in Ireland period. It's a gem. Parts of the M9 and M7 might be even nicer when they're finished, but as of now, the Mitchelstown to Fermoy section of the M8 is without equal. It just needs to be washed and swept before it opens at around 4pm on Monday.
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Old May 24th, 2009, 03:10 AM   #296
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What about the M50 and M1 - oh wait the M50 is an urban motorway but the M1 is very nice aswell - love the beehive huts at the side of the road at Balbriggan.


Thanks for the pics and I put them in the Ireland section also - lots of other new roads pics have been put there too.
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Old May 25th, 2009, 02:05 AM   #297
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sotonsi View Post
Napoleon changed from the Roman thing of driving on the left, and places like the US flipped over just to annoy the UK.

Only kidding - something about long distance stagecoaches and whipping. As the UK is an island, we didn't need these bigger coaches to travel 1000s of miles, so had no reason to change, nor any reason to change since, given that there is no land borders with anyone except RoI (who I'm surprised didn't change, after all, they seem to love making the road network different to the UKs - different lines, semi-new world signage (rather than european), km rather than miles).

Cost of conversion to right hand driving for the UK would be in the hundreds of billions (and rather a lot for Ireland, especially annoying as most of the roads that would have to change the geometry of are less than 10 years old) - so not worth it (changing the UK roads to metric signage would be pushing £50 billion, or take about 30 years and still cost a shedload to deal with speed limits)

Note that Japan and Indonesia, as well as various former UK colonies also drive on the left. These are big countries, that we didn't colonise, that do it 'UK style'.
The Republic of Ireland won't ever change to right-hand driving because all of the motorways have been built for left-hand drive.

This became very apparent to me when I drove on an unopened section of the M8 yesterday. The sighlines, curves and barriers are all designed for left-hand use.
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Old May 25th, 2009, 03:10 AM   #298
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M8, 4 km north of Cashel, Co. Tipperary

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Old May 26th, 2009, 12:56 AM   #299
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The white car above seems to prefer driving on the right already.

Great pics Furet.
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Old May 27th, 2009, 04:47 AM   #300
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Beautiful pics.
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