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Old September 10th, 2010, 10:13 PM   #681
Highwaycrazy
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Originally Posted by CairnsTony View Post
and a motorway from Dundalk to Derry. The last project I understood was to be mainly funded by the Republic government despite running mostly through Northern Ireland.
The Irish Government is insane funding a highway that mostly runs through the north of Ireland. What are the benefits on tax-payers down in the 26 counties- Nothing. The Irish Government gets no fair share out of this either. Road tax in the north doesn't go to the Irish government. Tax-payers ought to be protesting this scheme be re-examined. Especially considering the Irish public finances.
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Old September 10th, 2010, 11:48 PM   #682
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Originally Posted by spacetweek View Post
Here's the situation with all of those:

Cork-Waterford-Wexford: Some short stretches of dual are planned, but they'll be 10 years or more before they're all finished as they aren't a priority right now. The gaps in between may never be filled.
Limerick-Waterford: No plan to ever have a dual between these. It isn't clear what's happening here actually. Some bypasses will take place but they may be single carriageway and it will be 2020 at least before they're all done as again, the road is not a priority right now.
Dublin-Sligo: Yes, the part Mullingar-Longford will be built as a dual carriageway by 2015. There's a strong plan to finish the rest to Sligo, but it might be after 2020.
Dundalk-Derry: Yes, there is going to be some type of route from Dublin to Derry, but it looks like it'll only be a dual carriageway (not motorway) and it won't start at Dublin. It will either start at Drogheda or Dundalk. Traffic will use the M1 for the remainder of the trip. There's no timeframe for this new road though, but politics from Northern Ireland might be an influence.
Thanks for that! That certainly makes things clearer.
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Old September 11th, 2010, 01:04 AM   #683
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Originally Posted by Highwaycrazy View Post
The Irish Government is insane funding a highway that mostly runs through the north of Ireland. What are the benefits on tax-payers down in the 26 counties- Nothing. The Irish Government gets no fair share out of this either. Road tax in the north doesn't go to the Irish government. Tax-payers ought to be protesting this scheme be re-examined. Especially considering the Irish public finances.
Well I suppose there's the issue of giving Donegal its fair share of improved connectivity to Leinster as is the case with the other regions....but surely they could have negotiated a better financial deal with the UK gov't.

Of course these plans were made back in the days when cost wasn't so much an issue. In any case it would be interesting to see what NI's network would have looked like today if the terrorists hadn't f**ked things up for the last few decades
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Old September 11th, 2010, 01:47 AM   #684
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Well I suppose there's the issue of giving Donegal its fair share of improved connectivity to Leinster as is the case with the other regions....but surely they could have negotiated a better financial deal with the UK gov't.

Of course these plans were made back in the days when cost wasn't so much an issue. In any case it would be interesting to see what NI's network would have looked like today if the terrorists hadn't f**ked things up for the last few decades
Donegal could reasonably cope without having to go down this pointless route. The only real solution is re-unification because it would create a single road tax base. At least the Irish Tax payer would get his/her fair share then. Realistically, the Irish Government should have said 'no' unless of course the north wanted to unify to avail of this in return. Otherwise, let the UK gov't pay for it; they love ulster so much.

This scheme will probably not go ahead in the end.
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Old September 11th, 2010, 02:14 AM   #685
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As niterider rightly points out, the road will connect to the geographically isolated ROI county of Donegal, which has a population of 100,000+ in total. It will open up an urban centre of 100,000 people to the Republic also, which obviously has some economic benefits for the south if Derry natives take their business to Dublin over Belfast...
So, there's some benefits to taxpayers in the ROI!!!
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Old September 11th, 2010, 02:28 AM   #686
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Those new Irish motorways have to be some of the most photogenic freeways (tollways?) around.
Anyone have a Newry bypass update?
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Old September 11th, 2010, 05:13 PM   #687
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As niterider rightly points out, the road will connect to the geographically isolated ROI county of Donegal, which has a population of 100,000+ in total. It will open up an urban centre of 100,000 people to the Republic also, which obviously has some economic benefits for the south if Derry natives take their business to Dublin over Belfast...
So, there's some benefits to taxpayers in the ROI!!!
I agree; who funds it is a separate issue, as in and of itself it would be a very useful connection.
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Old September 11th, 2010, 05:17 PM   #688
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Donegal could reasonably cope without having to go down this pointless route. The only real solution is re-unification because it would create a single road tax base. At least the Irish Tax payer would get his/her fair share then. Realistically, the Irish Government should have said 'no' unless of course the north wanted to unify to avail of this in return. Otherwise, let the UK gov't pay for it; they love ulster so much.

This scheme will probably not go ahead in the end.
Ulster does not equate to Northern Ireland. Donegal, Monaghan and Cavan are all historically parts of Ulster.

Furthermore, if reunification were that simple, it would've happened by now. A nice idea in theory, but about a million citizens of the north would object.
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Old September 11th, 2010, 07:58 PM   #689
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Ulster does not equate to Northern Ireland. Donegal, Monaghan and Cavan are all historically parts of Ulster.

Furthermore, if reunification were that simple, it would've happened by now. A nice idea in theory, but about a million citizens of the north would object.
I meant the 6 counties.

It's more like 40-60 at the moment (with the political population gap continuing to narrow) but I'm not here to haggle unnecessarily over this disputed territory. Donegal could probably bypass this by a simple means of upgrading the existing N4 and N15. Financially, there's no benefit to be gained by paying for a new highway to be built in the north of Ireland. Put differently, why doesn't the Australian Gov't pay for a new highway in China?
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Old September 11th, 2010, 08:10 PM   #690
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Originally Posted by nordisk celt83 View Post
As niterider rightly points out, the road will connect to the geographically isolated ROI county of Donegal, which has a population of 100,000+ in total. It will open up an urban centre of 100,000 people to the Republic also, which obviously has some economic benefits for the south if Derry natives take their business to Dublin over Belfast...
So, there's some benefits to taxpayers in the ROI!!!
I really don't think it could be that simple. Nice idea in theory but pointless in reality. Tax structures are vastly different between both territories and the existing Donegal-Dublin routes could be upgraded instead. The former would benefit locals in the north of Ireland even though tax payers from the Republic would foot the bill. Unless a joint toll/road tax mechanism was part of this scheme, it would only make more economic sense then.
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Old September 11th, 2010, 08:39 PM   #691
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However, you're going a shorter route to northern Donegal, going through the North - N4/N15 upgrades. It's not as if there's border checkpoints and so on any more

See Croatia building a motorway through Bosnia rather than going via one of their islands to avoid having to cross the border twice. Likewise the Welsh assembly subsidises rail routes through England, as it's the quickest way between the north and south.

Australia building a highway in China is a massive straw man - Australians don't need to go through China on the shortest route from one part of their country to another. BTW - China is building roads all over the place, likewise Saudi Arabia - extend influence, create developed trading partners - good investment (it's also the reason why German happily gives tons to the EU without getting much back off them)

The Republic sees the whole island as needing decent infrastructure - in part because the North is their major trading partner and there's more trade if they are wealthier. The UK sees NI as a place where the public sector is bloated and, while we give lots of money, there's more things than just infrastructure, and we have really struggled to see the usefulness of decent roads and rail in recent years, unlike Dublin.

To be honest, I can't see why Dublin wouldn't want to make sure this road scheme happens, even if it meant paying 60%.
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Old September 12th, 2010, 12:10 AM   #692
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Originally Posted by spacetweek View Post
Here's the situation with all of those:

Cork-Waterford-Wexford: Some short stretches of dual are planned, but they'll be 10 years or more before they're all finished as they aren't a priority right now. The gaps in between may never be filled.
Limerick-Waterford: No plan to ever have a dual between these. It isn't clear what's happening here actually. Some bypasses will take place but they may be single carriageway and it will be 2020 at least before they're all done as again, the road is not a priority right now.
Dublin-Sligo: Yes, the part Mullingar-Longford will be built as a dual carriageway by 2015. There's a strong plan to finish the rest to Sligo, but it might be after 2020.
Dundalk-Derry: Yes, there is going to be some type of route from Dublin to Derry, but it looks like it'll only be a dual carriageway (not motorway) and it won't start at Dublin. It will either start at Drogheda or Dundalk. Traffic will use the M1 for the remainder of the trip. There's no timeframe for this new road though, but politics from Northern Ireland might be an influence.
Nearly

Cork - Waterford was supposed to be 2+2, this has all been scrapped now due to lack of money. New Ross bypass is the only change to the N25 for now, maybe an upgrade between Carrigtwohill and Midleton.

Limerick - Waterford was supposed to be 2+2, this has been scrapped.
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Old September 12th, 2010, 11:36 AM   #693
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yep there is no money left simple as for new road projects. Only chance of something starting is through the PPP's.

Its been confirmed by the NRA that the M17/M18 motorway will start construction early next year which means Limerick-Galway will be finally linked by motorway/dual carriageway standard road in 2013. Around 70% of the route will be motorway which connects to Galway via the M6 near Athenry. The mainline north of Athenry will be the M17 to Tuam which will form part of the N17 national primary road to Sligo.
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Old September 12th, 2010, 07:04 PM   #694
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Originally Posted by sotonsi View Post
However, you're going a shorter route to northern Donegal, going through the North - N4/N15 upgrades. It's not as if there's border checkpoints and so on any more

See Croatia building a motorway through Bosnia rather than going via one of their islands to avoid having to cross the border twice. Likewise the Welsh assembly subsidises rail routes through England, as it's the quickest way between the north and south.

Australia building a highway in China is a massive straw man - Australians don't need to go through China on the shortest route from one part of their country to another. BTW - China is building roads all over the place, likewise Saudi Arabia - extend influence, create developed trading partners - good investment (it's also the reason why German happily gives tons to the EU without getting much back off them)

The Republic sees the whole island as needing decent infrastructure - in part because the North is their major trading partner and there's more trade if they are wealthier. The UK sees NI as a place where the public sector is bloated and, while we give lots of money, there's more things than just infrastructure, and we have really struggled to see the usefulness of decent roads and rail in recent years, unlike Dublin.

To be honest, I can't see why Dublin wouldn't want to make sure this road scheme happens, even if it meant paying 60%.
The majority of this route would run through the north of Ireland.

If local people up there wanted this highway, they could join the Republic so they can become net contributors to the building costs. Otherwise, they can't have it both ways. This would be a privilege of unification.
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Old September 12th, 2010, 11:23 PM   #695
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Err, restarting a civil war that's only just finished so that they can pay for a road seems a bit excessive and unwarranted!

Deal with my arguments, please - I know that the majority of that route would run through the United Kingdom, but I gave reasons why Dublin would want that road built anyway and you ignore them and make your broken-record "unification" spiel.

I fail to see how Dublin wanting to build a road through Northern Ireland and saying "we'll fund 60%" is the people of Omagh, Strabane and Derry's fault. Surely the blame for the Irish Government wanting to pay 60% of the costs towards a road outside their jurisdiction lies with the Irish Government?

Are you going to take part with the debate, actually dealing with it, or are you just going to throw the axes you are grinding from the sidelines and add nothing?
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Old September 13th, 2010, 01:46 AM   #696
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Err, restarting a civil war that's only just finished so that they can pay for a road seems a bit excessive and unwarranted!

Deal with my arguments, please - I know that the majority of that route would run through the United Kingdom, but I gave reasons why Dublin would want that road built anyway and you ignore them and make your broken-record "unification" spiel.

I fail to see how Dublin wanting to build a road through Northern Ireland and saying "we'll fund 60%" is the people of Omagh, Strabane and Derry's fault. Surely the blame for the Irish Government wanting to pay 60% of the costs towards a road outside their jurisdiction lies with the Irish Government?

Are you going to take part with the debate, actually dealing with it, or are you just going to throw the axes you are grinding from the sidelines and add nothing?
Sorry, didnít mean the former comment to be at all condescending. As a principle, public money has to be properly accounted for.
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Old September 14th, 2010, 12:48 PM   #697
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See Croatia building a motorway through Bosnia rather than going via one of their islands to avoid having to cross the border twice.
I agree with your other examples, but Croatia isn't doing that actually due to disputes with Bosnia. They're bypassing it.
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To be honest, I can't see why Dublin wouldn't want to make sure this road scheme happens, even if it meant paying 60%.
Yes I agree. The N4 to Sligo and N15 Sligo-Letterkenny are getting upgraded anyway but these are mainly to benefit people in the west of Ireland. The Dublin-Donegal route is best achieved by building a road through NI. We benefit from that road as well as the people of NI. It's a fair deal to both sides.

I notice that the A5 is due to cost £850M now though, but if ROI is only contributing £400M then this isn't 60% anymore. The cost seems to be spiralling out of control. I gotta say, 2013 is an optimistic start date for this.
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Old September 14th, 2010, 08:57 PM   #698
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Quote:
Balfour Beatty to build M17/M18

September 14 2010


By Cathal McGuigan

Minister for Transport Noel Dempsey announced today that the preferred tender has been selected for the M17/M18 Gort to Tuam PPP Motorway.
The BAM Balfour Beatty Consortium is the preferred bidder confirmed the National Roads Authority. Acceptance of the project is expected to be finalised
in the coming weeks.

Transport Minister Noel Dempsey believes that the move will improve safety on roads across the West.

It is expected that work will begin early 2011 and be completed by the end of 2014.

Speaking today Minister Dempsey said: “This new road improvement scheme will make a very big difference to the west of Ireland.

“It will significantly improve safety and reduce journey times for traffic travelling north-south along the Atlantic corridor. It will improve connectivity between Dublin and the western region and it will significantly assist in the economic development of Border, Midlands and Western regions,” said Dempsey.

insideireland.ie
Both the M17 and M18 will be built together under one contract


Map of scheme(s)

Here is the M17 (25km's) section North of the M6

http://www.galway.ie/en/Services/Roa...7/intermap.htm

This shows the two together (because I can't find a seperate M18 map)




The scheme includes a motorway to motorway interchange with the M6. I think it is a design and build so it could change but atm it looks like it is going to be a 3 level stack roundabout style junction much loved/hated in the UK.

A motorway service area will also be built as part of the scheme apparently - to be attached to the 3 level stack!

It's 50kms long.
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Old September 14th, 2010, 09:25 PM   #699
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Traffic levels will make the 3-level roundabout perfectly fine and an easy way to add the services. However there would probably be a lot of turning traffic, so maybe it's not the best idea - M17 to M18 would be one of the least used flows. Dare I suggest a one-lane overbridge?
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Old September 14th, 2010, 11:32 PM   #700
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I thought the infamous service area had been removed from the scheme as it failed to secure planning permission.

/csd
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