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Old October 25th, 2010, 09:23 PM   #721
sotonsi
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Dun Laoghaire and Portlaoise are only signed in Irish. Isn't also the case that only Irish names are signed in Gaeltact areas?

I have to say that the quasi-Gaelic italic/all capitals is not a pleasant way of doing bilingual signage (though you can tell them apart, at least!). I like the Scottish (only parts of Scotland have bilingual direction signage) way best - different colours (black and green on white signs, white and yellow on green signs). The Welsh way of signing them both in the same colour and font is annoying, especially given that some counties are Welsh-first, and others English first.
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Old October 25th, 2010, 09:30 PM   #722
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So it's mostly tradition / language promotion than the fact Irish people cannot read the English signs and hence need Irish signs as well.

I understand the motivation, but I'm still not in favor of it. (it's not as bad as the mess in Belgium though).
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Old October 26th, 2010, 10:15 PM   #723
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M1: Border to Dublin

M1: Ireland/UK border to M50 J7

A photo trip down the N1/M1/M50, from the border with Northern Ireland to J7 of the M50.

The N1/M1 was the first of Ireland's major inter-urban routes to be completed. The route is built to motorway standards throughout, but the northerly 10km are classified all-purpose to provide a route for prohibited traffic to cross the border.

The M1 itself is 80 km long and is the only motorway in Ireland that has ITS (live journey times), and was the first to get online motorway service areas.

The map below shows our route. Apologies for some of the pictures, the light was beginning to fade the further south I headed!



1. The border is marked by the 120 km/h speed limit signs and the change from solid (NI) to dashed (RoI) hard shoulder lines. The sign behind the ANPR cameras (not sure what they're used for) says "SPEED LIMITS KILOMETRES PER HOUR". These were erected after the metrication of speed limits in 2005, as Northern Ireland (as with the rest of the UK) still uses mph.


2. The first junction in the Republic comes up pretty soon after the border. The B113 is a Northern Ireland road; this junction straddles the border itself, which is formed by a stream that runs beneath the slip road on the western side.


3. Route confirmation and distance sign after exit 20. The road here cuts through the valley of Ravensdale.


4. ADS for J19, Ravensdale.


5. North-facing slips only at J19.


6. Dashed hard shoulder and green signs = not a motorway, even though the road is built to motorway standards.


7. J18, Dundalk North, is the last exit before the motorway starts.


8. Exit 18.


9. Finally, and Irish motorway with proper Motorway Service Areas (MSAs)!


10. From here to the Drogheda South junction, the motorway is maintained by a private company (CRG = Celtic Roads Group), who built the Drogheda bypass section and the Boyne bridge.


11. 87km to Dublin.


12. This is the Dundalk Western Bypass, the last of the motorway sections to open.


13. The standard 500m ADS, and J17 itself.




14. Approaching J16, Dundalk South. The VMS is telling motorists that the new MSA is open ahead.


15. J16 is a large grade-separated roundabout. Until the completion of the Dundalk Western bypass, this was the northern terminus of the M1. Traffic had to negotiate the S2 eastern bypass of the town, which was choked with traffic due to the retail parks that sprang up along its length.


16. Closer to Dublin.


17. Approaching the Castlebellingham MSA.


18. Unlike French autoroutes, the prices here are similar to what local, off-motorway service stations charge. There isn't a premium for buying on the motorway itself.


19. Approach to the MSA.




20. J15, the exit for the village of Castlebellingham, from which the services take their name.


21. South of Castlebellingham, the VMS is advertising the M1 South MSA.


22. Approaching J14.




23. J12. We've missed J13 because it has south-facing slips only.


24. We're on the Dunleer bypass, which was the first section of the M1 outside of Dublin to open.


25. Just north of Drogheda now. Normally the VMS displays travel times to Dublin, but now it's advertising the MSA further south.


26. The Drogheda bypass is tolled. Northerners better have some Euros ready as GBP and credit cards aren't accepted!


27. Get off here to avoid the toll!


28. The Boyne bridge.


To be continued...
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Old October 26th, 2010, 10:17 PM   #724
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisZwolle View Post
So it's mostly tradition / language promotion than the fact Irish people cannot read the English signs and hence need Irish signs as well.

I understand the motivation, but I'm still not in favor of it. (it's not as bad as the mess in Belgium though).
The Finns have bilingual signs as well which make far less sence than bilingual signs in Ireland.
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Old October 26th, 2010, 10:33 PM   #725
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M1 trip, part 2

29. Heading south, we approach the first junction after the Boyne bridge.


30. The intermediate junctions have toll booths on the slip roads.


31. Approaching the mainline toll plaza. €1.90 for a car.


32. Mainline toll plaza. I'm in the express lane, reserved for tag holders.


33. First junction south of the toll. Toll-free section starts after J7.


34. Further south, this sign dating from 2003 is starting to look at bit bashed.


35. There's a programme to install cantilever signs at the exit diverge points on the M1 and M4. On the left you can see the recently-installed base and protecting crash barrier. Presumably the signs will be erected soon.


36. The light was quite poor here.


37. Entrance to the M1 South services, near Lusk.


38. Travel time to J2 Airport (5 min) and the Dublin Port Tunnel (8 min).


39. The Dublin mountains are visible in the distance of this shot.


40. Plenty of warning for the airport.


41. J3 has south-facing slips only, so no access for us.


42. Next exit for the airport, as J3's on ramps merge in from the left.


43. J2, Dublin Airport. A ridiculous signal-controlled grade-separated roundabout that requires vehicles to stop. They should have put a trumpet in!


44. Approaching the J1, the M1/M50 interchange, two lanes become four with the merge from the airport junction.


Coming next, the final part: M1 to the M50.
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Old October 26th, 2010, 11:14 PM   #726
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I found this picture of an Irish 2+2 road on wikipedia.



Looks very similar to some roads here in Sweden. Are these narrow 2+2 widespread in Ireland?

Also, are the lanes 3,25 or 3,5m wide?
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Old October 26th, 2010, 11:47 PM   #727
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M1 and M50

45. Two lanes from J2 merge left as we approach the M50 interchange.


46. The M1 now officially ends here. It used to continue south under the interchange with the M50, but this section was renumbered as the M50 when the Dublin Port Tunnel opened. Google maps has this incorrectly as the M1. Note the through lanes don't refer to the road as the M50, as this would probably confuse some motorists, as most people looking for the M50 at this point aren't looking for the Dublin Port Tunnel.


47. This junction was originally a grade-separated roundabout. As part of the M50 upgrade project, free-flowing slips were added for all M1/M50 movements. Access to the N32 is still via the old roundabout, but this is the only motorway-to-motorway interchange in the Republic where all motorway movements are included and are all free-flowing.


48. As we head for the freeflow slip to the M50 southbound, we pass under the recently-constructed M50 northbound to Dublin Port Tunnel carriageway.


49. A fine view of the Dublin mountains from the top of the slip road. The sign visible on the extreme left warns of a lane drop on the M50 NB to Dublin Port Tunnel carriageway, which runs parallel with our lanes for a hundred metres or so.


50. As we approach the start of the M50 mainline proper (southbound), the link from the roundabout (and the N32) is visible to the right, and the M50 (Port Tunnel access) to M50 (mainline) slip is visible to the extreme left. It's probably best to look at OpenStreetMap when trying to understand these references!


51. M50 mainline, approaching J4. From here to J13 there are four lanes, one of which gets dropped at each junction along the way (hence the different dashing on the line painting).


52. Between J4 and J5, southbound on the M50.


53. J5 is the junction with the N2.This has recently been reconstructed to be partially free-flowing.


54. Between J5 and J6.


55. Diverge at exit 6. This was the last of the junctions to be reconstructed, and now has free-flowing movements between the M50 and the N3 west of the M50. Some movements (such as gaining access to the city side of the N3) still require going through the original grade-separated roundabout.


56. Oops -- they seem to have forgotten the N3 route markers on these signs. The left-hand lane loops under the city-bound carriageway and crosses over the M50 as it heads west. See here for OSM map.


57. The M50 mainline travels under the other roads at J6. This was the most complex of the junctions to reconstruct, as the planners had to cater for the M50 and N3 major roads, as well as the Dublin - Sligo railway line, the river Tolka, and the Royal Canal, which all pass through this junction. Further complicating matters was a gym, which is located in the NW corner of the interchange!


58. The M50 is tolled between J6 and J5. Originally owned by a private consortium, they were bought out for €600 million, and the government now owns this section. Barrier-free tolling was introduced, and users have the option of an electronic tag, registering for a video account, and post-pay. The latter two make use of ANPR to match the car to the registered keeper. Foreign residents are also supposed to pay, but apart from with Northern Ireland (where a data sharing agreement has recently been put in place), there's no way of matching a number plate to a person.


59. Approaching the Westlink bridges, which span the river Liffey.


60. The VMSs on the newly upgraded M50 are VERY bright!


61. The infamous Westlink bridges. We're about to cross onto the second bridge, which was completed in 2005 and carries the southbound carriageway. The original bridge, completed in 1990, is to the right here. Until 2005 this carried both north and southbound traffic. The former toll booths (now demolished) were immediately behind where this shot was taken.


62. Having crossed the bridge, I'm about to exit the motorway here at J7.


63. This former grade-separated roundabout has been converted to a partial cloverleaf. You can continue the trip into the city on the N4 using my N4/M4 post from a few pages back.
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Old October 26th, 2010, 11:51 PM   #728
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Quote:
Originally Posted by metasmurf View Post
I found this picture of an Irish 2+2 road on wikipedia.



Looks very similar to some roads here in Sweden. Are these narrow 2+2 widespread in Ireland?

Also, are the lanes 3,25 or 3,5m wide?
One of my pictures!

The lanes are 3.5 metres wide. This profile is a recent innovation in Ireland, and has only been deployed in a few places:
  • N4 Dromad - Roosky
  • N21 Castleisland bypass (opened last week)
  • N3 Kells bypass (see my pics earlier on this thread)

This profile will now be used for new builds for roads that would formerly have been 2+1.

/csd
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Old October 27th, 2010, 12:37 AM   #729
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisZwolle View Post
So it's mostly tradition / language promotion than the fact Irish people cannot read the English signs and hence need Irish signs as well.

I understand the motivation, but I'm still not in favor of it. (it's not as bad as the mess in Belgium though).
In Ireland, pretty much no one (despite the fact of what the censuses try to say, even then they say that it's very little) speaks Irish on a day to day basis. They put Irish up on signs as a matter of pride really. Dún Laoghaire and Portlaoise were called Kingstown and Maryborough respectively (Queenstown was Cobh). Anyway, they were renamed with the introduction of the Irish Free State, and thus do not have English names.
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Old October 27th, 2010, 12:45 AM   #730
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There are places in Ireland were only Irish is spoken. I heard two seperate Irish conversations in Dublin yesterday.......so that's not true really.
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Ireland forum is here

http://www.skyscrapercity.com/forumdisplay.php?f=1596
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Old October 27th, 2010, 12:52 AM   #731
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I didn't say no one at all, 72 000 people speaking Irish on a daily basis isn't much.



Green is category A gaeltacht; 60%+ Irish speakers
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Old October 27th, 2010, 02:25 AM   #732
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Looking at the speed limit signs, the north of Ireland really held on to the past as regards the existing use of 'MPH' speed limits. Still can't believe they're holding out on this! Making the switch to Km/h isn't rocket science.
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Old October 27th, 2010, 04:55 AM   #733
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You mean Northern Ireland? Because last time I checked, Donegal had signs in km/h. I'd like to see Northern Ireland and the rest of the UK switch to km/h, but it won't be for a few years yet.
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Old October 27th, 2010, 05:32 AM   #734
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Out of interest, why does Ireland use a combination of European and American signage? I'm not complaining...it's actually quite an interesting blend, as if someone threw the British / American road sign systems into a blender and improved on both: end result = Irish signage.
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Old October 27th, 2010, 10:53 AM   #735
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You mean Northern Ireland? Because last time I checked, Donegal had signs in km/h. I'd like to see Northern Ireland and the rest of the UK switch to km/h, but it won't be for a few years yet.
Last time I checked, the north of Ireland has a devolved local government. Much of their economy is now practically owned by the remainder of Ireland due to the amount of cross-border shopping. The UK government does not want it because it costs more than Scotland and Wales combined. They didn't spare it from their savage spending cuts either. It's also a disputed territory, at least over the past 35 years anyway. I don't see how it would be any problem having Metric signage on the Highways. I'm sure people would be happy to switch over.
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Old October 27th, 2010, 12:00 PM   #736
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisZwolle View Post
So it's mostly tradition / language promotion than the fact Irish people cannot read the English signs and hence need Irish signs as well.
All Irish people speak English whether as a first or second language, and can read the English signs. They are there, as has been said, to promote the Irish language.

On a slightly different note,the Anglicisation of place names in Ireland is really no different from the Anglicisation of many place names in England itself which sometimes predate English and are of Celtic, or even (such as London) of pre-Celtic origin. Then there's the large number of place names of Danish origin in the east of England, but I digress...
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Old October 27th, 2010, 03:44 PM   #737
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I'd like to see Northern Ireland and the rest of the UK switch to km/h, but it won't be for a few years yet.
Well mostly as it's rather expensive for what it actually is, which is pretty pointless. But the dead horse of conformity to the metric ideal must be flogged!

About the only reason I can see for doing it is to give the sign making industry and lawyers a short term kick in business.
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Originally Posted by Comfortably Numb View Post
Out of interest, why does Ireland use a combination of European and American signage? I'm not complaining...it's actually quite an interesting blend, as if someone threw the British / American road sign systems into a blender and improved on both: end result = Irish signage.
It's not rocket science to see why Ireland didn't really want to copy the British (even if it's just the UK conforming to an agreement between European countries) wrt signage... I must say that I like it, mostly as it is a bit different.
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Last time I checked, the north of Ireland has a devolved local government.
Donegal, Monaghan, Sligo, Leitrim? I think that was said already and you failed to pick up the point. So I'll spell it out: the proper term for the 6 counties of Ireland that are part of the UK is Northern Ireland. Even if you think it's occupied territory (Northern Cyprus sets an example there), that's what it's called. The north of Ireland is a different term, and would include Donegal, and another few counties in the Republic too (and is Ireland there the country or the island, so does Northern Ireland go in there as well?).
Quote:
I don't see how it would be any problem having Metric signage on the Highways. I'm sure people would be happy to switch over.
Too much cost for no gain other than the cultural imperialists getting to spit in the eye of 'petty national identity'. If converting Northern Ireland alone, it'll be turned into a UK vs RoI debate, so will be incredibly divisive. If the whole UK, then there will be a strong backlash by lots of English people (a sizeable amount across the spectrum), because, at the least extreme view, it's not pragmatic to do so (ain't broke, why fix?) and at the more extreme, it's trashing the last remnants of a part of English culture and heritage, replacing it with bland, 'European', conformity (perhaps you can see I have a lot of sympathies with this view).

The Republic of Ireland, while it wanted to make such a gesture (as the heritage and culture was one they wanted to forget, and return to an older one), realised how expensive such a gesture was for little return (like Irish on signs), so it did it gradually, though speed limits were done quickly (well they have to be) when the was some money in the coffers.
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Old October 27th, 2010, 04:33 PM   #738
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Last time I checked, the north of Ireland has a devolved local government.
Nope. Northern Ireland has a devolved government, not 'the north of Ireland'. If you don't know the difference between the two things, then you're probably not in any position to be going on about whether the UK government 'wants' Northern Ireland or whether Northern Irish people would be happy to change over to metric road signs.

Furthermore, every US state has 'devolved government' too, but any independent effort by a state to introduce metric signs would be stamped on. In fact, I have a feeling it's happened before already.

And where the hell UK spending cuts come into any of this, I really do not know.

Last edited by Gareth; October 27th, 2010 at 04:50 PM.
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Old October 27th, 2010, 05:10 PM   #739
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Furthermore, every US state has 'devolved government' too, but any independent effort by a state to introduce metric signs would be stamped on. In fact, I have a feeling it's happened before already.
Metric signs are perfectly legal in the US.
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Old October 27th, 2010, 05:21 PM   #740
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Out of interest, why does Ireland use a combination of European and American signage? I'm not complaining...it's actually quite an interesting blend, as if someone threw the British / American road sign systems into a blender and improved on both: end result = Irish signage.
Umn, not sure about Irish signs improving on both UK & US signage.

The yellow diamonds signs are often considered a result or not wanting to be British, however, it should be noted that these were introduced in Ireland in 1956, some nine years before the UK introduced the European-style red triangle signs.

The direction signs are very British, albeit with some differences. They were introduced in 1977, some 15 years after the British direction signs, but are clearly based on them.

In short, whereas the UK had a big overhall of all its signs, Ireland changed different types of signs in different years, resulting in the mixed bag of influences you see there today.

Last edited by Gareth; October 27th, 2010 at 05:30 PM.
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