The Proposition 1 (RTID) Thread

[taiwanesedrummer36]

Originally Posted by Tcmetro

Isn't there a BNSF tunnel under downtown that Sounder North uses? Could stations ever be added? Sorry to confuse you with the DSTT.

Yes, there is. But adding stations would be pretty difficult. Those Cascadia people have drawings and plans for adding a station (for Sounder) around University Street:





Underground Transit Hub Plan Surfaces for Downtown Seattle

By: Marc Stiles
Seattle Daily Journal of Commerce
October 13, 2003


When the big-picture types at the Discovery Institute think about Seattle's future, they see a subterranean, multi-modal transit center under Benaroya Hall.

The dream is to connect light rail, commuter rail, monorail, buses and ferries at Second Avenue and University Street.

Welcome to the Mid-Town Transit Hub.

On the hub's lowest level, commuters could catch Sounder trains traveling in the Burlington Northern Santa Fe Railroad tunnel. Up one level on a mezzanine, they could travel under Second Avenue, and connect to a street-level pedestrian corridor past the Seattle Art Museum to the ferry terminal at Colman Dock. Above the mezzanine, they could hop aboard light rail trains and buses in the downtown transit tunnel, and board the monorail along Second Avenue.

"You really have the potential to have true inter-modality for the first time," Discovery Institute President Bruce Chapman said last week when he unveiled a drawing of the hub during a public forum on tunneling that was hosted by his think tank.

"All we're talking (about) is a connection between two existing tunnels," Bruce Agnew, director of the institute's Cascadia Project, said. The goal of the Cascadia Project is to develop a seamless transportation system for British Columbia, Washington and Oregon.

Institute officials see the hub as part of a larger vision. Agnew also described "a grand makeover" of Colman Dock into a multi-modal gateway on a rejuvenated waterfront. He would like to see Colman Dock connected to downtown via the pedestrian corridor, the institute has dubbed the Seattle Art Walk.

"We see this as kind of a phase two of the downtown area," said Agnew. The first phase is light rail, the monorail and replacement of the Alaskan Way Viaduct. "We think this is an obvious addition that would add tremendous value."

Institute officials are showing the plan now in hopes officials will consider at least punching a shaft between the two tunnels as they build light rail and upgrade the BNSF tunnel's ventilation system to accommodate more Sounder commuter and freight trains.

"If all that happens, this becomes urgent rather than a dream," Agnew said. "As you do (light rail), think of this," he added, pointing to the drawing of the hub.

He wants monorail officials to be aware of the idea so they might consider a station at Second and University.

The institute commissioned J. Craig Thorpe, a transportation consultant and artist, to come up with the drawing. Thorpe said he researched the plan by talking to railroad experts, monorail officials, engineers for Benaroya Hall and officials at the Washington State Department of Transportation.

Thorpe's research indicates the distance from the midpoint of University Street between Second and Third avenues to the BNSF railroad tracks is 85 feet. The distance from the floor of the bus tunnel to the floor of the railroad tunnel is 65 feet.

He said while it would not be cheap "this is a doable kind of thing.

"Seamless transportation is not just a phrase, it is a crucial necessity. This is one of the things that jumped out at me about this project."

The institute plans to shop the plan around to local officials. If it receives support, engineering work and cost analyses could begin.

Funding, according to Agnew, could come from the federal government. He noted Congress is reconsidering a transportation bill and as much as $425 billion for road and rail projects could be available. "This is example No. 1 of a national project," he said.

"This is a drawing. This is a vision," Agnew said. "This is the beginning of a long process. But from the viewpoint of connectivity and public safety, it just seems to make a lot of sense."

[taiwanesedrummer36]

Here's another image from Cascadia. It's not the tunnel, but it's a future station:

[citruspastels]

too bad university is only 10 blocks away from king street station. probably not quite far enough to warrant the huge cost of building a commuter station there.

[UrbanBen]

Originally Posted by citruspastels

too bad university is only 10 blocks away from king street station. probably not quite far enough to warrant the huge cost of building a commuter station there.

Right. A north downtown station is a possibility, but it's way less cost effective than building light rail to bellevue.

[taiwanesedrummer36]

Originally Posted by UrbanBen

Right. A north downtown station is a possibility, but it's way less cost effective than building light rail to bellevue.

In the original Sound Move, I remember the Sounder north line was going to have stations at Ballard and Shoreline/Richmond Beach. At least Ballard is feasible; Richmond Beach might not have good access (to the rest of the Shoreline area). The Downtown area can just be served by light rail lines and streetcars (for short distances); Sounder is for long distances.

[UrbanBen]

Originally Posted by taiwanesedrummer36

In the original Sound Move, I remember the Sounder north line was going to have stations at Ballard and Shoreline/Richmond Beach. At least Ballard is feasible; Richmond Beach might not have good access (to the rest of the Shoreline area). The Downtown area can just be served by light rail lines and streetcars (for short distances); Sounder is for long distances.

No, it wasn't "going to" - it was studied. I really hope that if ST2 passes in 08, we don't have to hear people saying ST2 was "going to" build light rail to Burien just because it's one of the studies in that...

Ballard is possible but unlikely - remember that Sounder doesn't just "go downtown", it goes to south downtown. Ballard riders have a bus option that, as a single seat ride, generally beats two transfers (out to Sounder, which is not in the core of Ballard, then again in downtown).

Did I point you at the Amtrak Cascades long range plan? Why aren't we talking about the improvements we've already identified? We need Edmonds Crossing, we need the Salmon Bay bridge upgrade/replacement so we can go faster over it - and these are projects we can actually ask the state for immediately, instead of waiting for another vote.

[sequoias]

I love that rendering! I wonder what's that red train on the right side of the picture. It looks like some kind of high speed rail to me. Does it also mean they will replace the old waterfront streetcars with those brand new ones? It's only fantasy until we will see the reality.

[UrbanBen]

Originally Posted by sequoias

I love that rendering! I wonder what's that red train on the right side of the picture. It looks like some kind of high speed rail to me. Does it also mean they will replace the old waterfront streetcars with those brand new ones? It's only fantasy until we will see the reality.

Holy crap, dude. That's the DISCOVERY INSTITUTE's drawing (as in, the 'intelligent design' / aka creationism folks) - it's not a plan or a possibility. The train they're showing on the right is a Colorado Railcar DMU, and no one has any plans to buy them, nor are they fast.

[taiwanesedrummer36]

Originally Posted by UrbanBen

No, it wasn't "going to" - it was studied. I really hope that if ST2 passes in 08, we don't have to hear people saying ST2 was "going to" build light rail to Burien just because it's one of the studies in that...

Ballard is possible but unlikely - remember that Sounder doesn't just "go downtown", it goes to south downtown. Ballard riders have a bus option that, as a single seat ride, generally beats two transfers (out to Sounder, which is not in the core of Ballard, then again in downtown).

Did I point you at the Amtrak Cascades long range plan? Why aren't we talking about the improvements we've already identified? We need Edmonds Crossing, we need the Salmon Bay bridge upgrade/replacement so we can go faster over it - and these are projects we can actually ask the state for immediately, instead of waiting for another vote.

Well, sorry my memory does not meet your standards. I only remembered a webpage on Sound Transit's website quite a while ago (maybe 7 or 8 years) that mentioned something about a Ballard Station. Sorry to those who I offended.

Since UrbanBen seems to want to talk about Amtrak Cascades so much, i'll start us off:


WSDOT Amtrak Cascades Long-Range Plan link, breif excerpts:



The Washington State Department of Transportation (WSDOT) has updated its long-range plan for intercity passenger rail service in western Washington. The service, known as Amtrak Cascades, connects Portland, Seattle, Vancouver, BC and ten intermediate cities (see Exhibit ES-1).

WSDOT’s latest long-range plan for Amtrak Cascades service includes service goals, ridership and revenue forecasts, equipment requirements, updated operating and capital construction plans, and cost estimates for each service increment that could be added in the years ahead if funding and market demand exist.

WSDOT’s updated plan for intercity passenger rail service follows a step by step approach that links specific sets of construction projects to service improvements. These service improvements are grouped into six distinct “building blocks” that could be introduced to the traveling public over time. The total cost for all the construction and equipment necessary to achieve WSDOT’s service goals for intercity passenger rail service between Portland, Seattle, and Vancouver, BC is estimated to exceed $6.5 billion dollars in 2006 dollars. The intercity service will also require operating subsidies each year as the capital investments are put in place. Upon completion of the capital investment plan, WSDOT’s projections show that the service could carry nearly three million passengers per year and operate with limited or no public subsidy, depending on prices charged for passenger fares.

WSDOT’s updated long-range plan for Amtrak Cascades is intended to serve as the state’s blueprint for the development of intercity passenger service. As February 2006 Washington State Long-Range Plan for Amtrak Cascades such, the blueprint lays out how the entire capital program could be completed by the year 2023. However, there is only limited funding currently available to execute the plan. If WSDOT’s long-range plan is to be completed by 2023, the federal government must become an active funding partner, just as it is in other transportation programs. The absence of federal funding will prevent WSDOT from implementing this plan by 2023 and may severely limit the department’s ability to add faster, more frequent service in the years ahead.


Where do the trains run?
Amtrak operates Amtrak Cascades service in the state of Washington over the BNSF Railway Company’s (BNSF) north-south main line. The alignment roughly parallels Interstate 5 and runs through nine counties in western Washington: Clark, Cowlitz, Lewis, Thurston, Pierce, King, Snohomish, Skagit, and Whatcom. The trains also travel through parts of Oregon and
British Columbia.


What work has already been done or is currently underway?
Over the past ten years, the states of Washington and Oregon have commissioned a series of feasibility studies to assess the practical problems, costs, and benefits of providing public investment to upgrade the corridor for safe, faster, more frequent, and reliable passenger rail service. These efforts have resulted in expanded service between Portland, OR and Seattle (1994 and 1998); reinstated service between Seattle and Vancouver, BC (1995); expanded service between Portland and Eugene, OR (1994 and 2000); and additional service between Bellingham and Seattle (1999). New Amtrak Cascades service was introduced in January 1999. This new service features new trains built by Talgo, Inc. and upgraded customer amenities. Station improvements throughout the corridor have also been completed (Bellingham; Mount Vernon; Everett; Olympia/Lacey; Centralia; Kelso/Longview; Vancouver, WA) or initiated (Seattle). Exhibit ES-2 on the following page lists the investments that have been made by the various funding entities between 1994 and 2004.





Why can’t we just increase train speeds and put more trains on the tracks now?
Amtrak Cascades trains operate primarily on tracks owned by BNSF; they share those tracks with freight trains. With increases in passenger and freight rail service, the tracks are reaching their capacity. Congestion is due to the increased number of trains on the tracks, particularly where bridges or tunnels limit the system; where freight trains are put together and/or taken apart; and where rivers, shorelines, and mountains limit train service. If more passenger trains are added to this corridor, improvements must be made to relieve or bypass these chokepoints. In addition, maximum authorized passenger train speeds are seventy-nine miles per hour (mph) on the entire corridor. These speeds are the highest allowed by the FRA’s regulations for the current type of track and signal system that exists along the corridor. To increase speeds above seventy-nine mph, improvements to the tracks, crossings, and train control and signal systems need to be made. These investments, together with track and facility improvements, will ensure the needs of the many users of BNSF’s railway are met.




What type of future service is WSDOT planning?
Washington State plans to incrementally improve Amtrak Cascades service
over the next twenty years, based on market demand, partnership investment, and legislative authorization. Improvements to track, safety systems, train equipment and stations will reduce travel times, increase train frequency, and improve safety and reliability. WSDOT’s current plans outline rail corridor and service development through 2023. The travel times and train frequencies presented in this discussion focus on a service mid-point, as well as year 2023. Year 2023 represents WSDOT’s twenty year build-out plan. A specific year was not chosen for the “midpoint” in service and infrastructure development—a number of intermediate years could have been chosen; however, development of this incremental rail service is dependent upon program funding.


What will it cost to operate?
The total annual cost of providing intercity rail service (operations and
maintenance) is projected to range from today’s approximately $20 million to
more than $83 million by year 2023, excluding the effects of inflation.


Funding for Amtrak Cascades Capital Projects
It is important to note that no long-term financial commitments have yet been
made by any of the various funding entities that are described in this plan.
However, this long-range plan assumes that the major capital construction
projects that are needed to support expanded Amtrak Cascades service in the
Pacific Northwest will be funded in the following manner:
- Projects necessary to provide faster, more frequent Amtrak Cascades service between downtown Portland, OR and the Columbia River will be funded by the state of Oregon, with potential funding coming from the federal government and Amtrak.
- Projects necessary to increase the level of Sounder commuter rail service in the central Puget Sound region will be funded by Sound Transit and the federal government.
- Projects necessary to provide faster, more frequent Amtrak Cascades service between the Columbia River and the Canadian border will be funded by the state of Washington, with potential funding coming from the federal government and Amtrak.
- Projects necessary to improve Amtrak Cascades service in British Columbia will be funded by the province of British Columbia, the Canadian federal government, and regional transportation agencies.
- Train sets and locomotives will be funded by the states of Oregon and
Washington, with additional funds provided by Amtrak and the federal government.
- The Seattle Maintenance Facility will be funded by Amtrak, the federal government, the state of Washington, and Sound Transit.
- Station improvements will be funded jointly by local jurisdictions, regional, state and provincial governments, and the federal governments of the U.S. and Canada.
- The new rail bridge across the Columbia River will be funded by the railroads, the states of Washington and Oregon, and the federal government.
- Projects that provide a direct benefit to the BNSF Railway Company will be funded by the railroad.




__________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________


Based on what i've read so far (I haven't read all 223 pages), the plan's somewhere around average-above average. Driving compared with taking the train (for example, between Seattle and Everett) might be faster, even considering border-wait times. But, taking a train would be a lot easier and relaxing than driving.

I encourage EVERYONE to read the plan. Really gives you something to think about (in terms of rail transportation for our region).

[citruspastels]

beautiful plan! finally some serious talk about high speed rail between portland and vancouver (bc).

just look at those travel times! 2:15 to portland, 13 times a day? awesome!

let's hope we vote in a federal government that sees the tremendous benefits of having such rail systems and follows through with some serious $$$.

[taiwanesedrummer36]

Originally Posted by citruspastels

beautiful plan! finally some serious talk about high speed rail between portland and vancouver (bc).

just look at those travel times! 2:15 to portland, 13 times a day? awesome!

let's hope we vote in a federal government that sees the tremendous benefits of having such rail systems and follows through with some serious $$$.

[Disregard].

Also, maybe Amtrak could partner with Vancouver's Translink to see what the proposed line could also include in Vancouver. I think a station at White Rock/Surrey would be good. Such a station could really improve commuting times between Vancouver and the growing suburb. The only thing I don't really look forward to is the potential border/customs hassles that could come. I'm not sure what goes on now; I find it easier to drive to Vancouver.

[citruspastels]

well, they are planning on getting to around 125 mph no? why wouldn't you consider that "high speed?"

[taiwanesedrummer36]

Originally Posted by citruspastels

well, they are planning on getting to around 125 mph no? why wouldn't you consider that "high speed?"

Okay, I see; my mistake. I don't like converting between miles and km, especially since other high-speed rail systems use km as measurements.

Okay, so just for clarification (for everyone): 125 mph equals about 201 km/h, so that's quite fast!

(could be faster though )

[UrbanBen]

Originally Posted by citruspastels

beautiful plan! finally some serious talk about high speed rail between portland and vancouver (bc).

just look at those travel times! 2:15 to portland, 13 times a day? awesome!

let's hope we vote in a federal government that sees the tremendous benefits of having such rail systems and follows through with some serious $$$.

Most of that plan is from 1997 - it hasn't gotten much traction, and yes, let's hope it does!

We are getting some of the small projects right now. Sound Transit is trying to build the Point Defiance Bypass, or their part of it, to cut several minutes off of the SEA-PDX run.

[UrbanBen]

Originally Posted by citruspastels

well, they are planning on getting to around 125 mph no? why wouldn't you consider that "high speed?"

The Cascades plan you see here tops out at 110mph - and only in some parts of the corridor. If we built a proper system like TGV Est (320kph) - we'd see Portland in 1h15, not 2h15.

[PDXPaul]

Amtrak's good, but HSR... I'm not sure of the need.

[UrbanBen]

Originally Posted by PDXPaul

Amtrak's good, but HSR... I'm not sure of the need.

The USDOT is pretty sure of the need.

[taiwanesedrummer36]

Originally Posted by UrbanBen

The USDOT is pretty sure of the need.

The need is pretty great. The Portland, Seattle, and Vancouver metropolitan areas are growing rapidly, and with the economy growing in these three areas, there's a greater need for economic development and partnerships. And how do those partnerships occur? Usually via planes and cars (when it comes to the transportation element).

And so, this goes back to Amtrak Cascades. Everyone's sick of flying and driving on I-5 (with all the slow downs, congestion, and daily accidents), and add gas prices, terrorism, airport security, inflation to that, we're all looking for a new way to travel. The solution? RAIL! In this case, high-speed rail.

Trains are obviously the easiet way to reduce congestion between any two Amercan/Canadian cities. Taking a train doesn't involve any major security checks, popping ears, nauciousness, or any problems people might have (health-related) taking a plane. And taking a train doesn't involve road rage, traffic jams, and well, you all get the point.

Other countries have found heavily investing in rail provides great benefits (GREAT benefits). Now it's our turn, and as far as I can see, Amtrak Cascades is a wonderful start.