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Old July 22nd, 2017, 03:35 AM   #241
chanyxp
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SSMEX: This video should answer your concerns.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TC7CrgJrCCc
Skip to 4:42 for phasing of the construction.
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Old July 22nd, 2017, 05:10 AM   #242
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Quote:
Originally Posted by phoenixboi08 View Post
Well, bear in mind that this is only the western half of the new, consolidate Terminal.

The eastern (as well as the intermediate) section will be built at a later date.

Unless I'm misunderstanding what you meant, and you were referring to how this phasing will work, together...because I also don't know how the western phase will be able to support full functionality once they demolish the old to build the second phase.

I saw a more detailed breakdown of how construction should work, somewhere...
Quote:
Originally Posted by chanyxp View Post
SSMEX: This video should answer your concerns.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TC7CrgJrCCc
Skip to 4:42 for phasing of the construction.

Ahh gotcha. That video clarified a lot. Thanks!
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Old July 22nd, 2017, 08:24 AM   #243
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BoulderGrad View Post
Thanks for all that! Lots of great info.

Even with Next-Gen ATC, looks like converting LGA and JFK to the primarily 4-22 configuration for their runways is the best bet for a built in efficiency for the New York airspace. Next-Gen is plodding along, but has a ways to go before its ready. The nice part about the latest plan for JFK is it doesn't preclude this arrangement:

JFK New Runways by mahhockey, on Flickr
That'll will work. They will build a new runway. It will reduce the congestion. It will ease the slot restrictions. They don't have to worry about flight delays. It will helps.

Quote:
Originally Posted by shakman View Post
Work will probably be done in phases in order to minimally disrupt operations during construction.
Right, they don't want to interrupt. Let the construction workers doing their jobs.

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Originally Posted by 809anthony View Post
It's coming along nicely. Keep doing it!
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Old July 27th, 2017, 02:37 AM   #244
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No, they can't build a new runway into a wildlife preserve in Jamaica Bay! You won't see that plan happening anytime soon. Best option is a new airport for NYC in the future because JFK has no more room to grow!!

Last edited by JohnDee; July 27th, 2017 at 07:16 PM.
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Old July 29th, 2017, 06:08 AM   #245
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No, they can't build a new runway into a wildlife preserve in Jamaica Bay! You won't see that plan happening anytime soon. Best option is a new airport for NYC in the future because JFK has no more room to grow!!
Oh yes, they will! They can build a new runway. You don't have any choice. They had it right to build new runway.
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Old July 30th, 2017, 01:14 PM   #246
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Originally Posted by N830MH View Post
Oh yes, they will! They can build a new runway. You don't have any choice. They had it right to build new runway.
No, there is no current plan for a runway at JFK. None. The Bay is a protected wetland and no new landfill is allowed by law. Those diagrams are from some report that came out nearly 8 years ago and wree just an throwing around ideas. Most of the good options required landfill in the bay and that isn't allowed. JFk is done expanding and has to make use of its current runways until the day when the government allows it, but that is unlikely due to the environmentalists.

Last edited by JohnDee; July 30th, 2017 at 01:31 PM.
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Old July 30th, 2017, 05:03 PM   #247
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnDee View Post
No, there is no current plan for a runway at JFK. None.
And none is needed if airspace congestion is not resolved first.

Quote:
The Bay is a protected wetland and no new landfill is allowed by law.
If there is sufficient need, laws can in principle be changed. For instance by compensation for ecological concerns elsewhere in the bay or wider region.

The bay is not in its natural state as is, and I recall that it suffers from poor water quality somewhere near JFK as a result. Some of the alternatives require only very minimal new landfill, which can be combined with improvements to the overall wetlands. Such as strategically reverting other land back to the bay.

As this is a federally administered area, laws would have to be changed in DC, along with many other evaluations, reviews, suits, etc. Even if possible in principle, this definitely is not a quick solution.
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Old July 30th, 2017, 11:12 PM   #248
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Originally Posted by 809anthony View Post
When they plan to start redevelopment?
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Old July 31st, 2017, 05:34 AM   #249
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kot Bazilio View Post
When they plan to start redevelopment?

Not sure, I think they put out an RFP recently though.
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Old July 31st, 2017, 05:38 AM   #250
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WillBuild View Post
And none is needed if airspace congestion is not resolved first.




If there is sufficient need, laws can in principle be changed. For instance by compensation for ecological concerns elsewhere in the bay or wider region.

The bay is not in its natural state as is, and I recall that it suffers from poor water quality somewhere near JFK as a result. Some of the alternatives require only very minimal new landfill, which can be combined with improvements to the overall wetlands. Such as strategically reverting other land back to the bay.

As this is a federally administered area, laws would have to be changed in DC, along with many other evaluations, reviews, suits, etc. Even if possible in principle, this definitely is not a quick solution.
Probably won't happen... the NIMBY's will be out in force.

Last edited by JohnDee; July 31st, 2017 at 06:04 AM.
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Old August 9th, 2017, 11:22 PM   #251
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SSMEX View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by phoenixboi08 View Post
Well, bear in mind that this is only the western half of the new, consolidate Terminal.

The eastern (as well as the intermediate) section will be built at a later date.

Unless I'm misunderstanding what you meant, and you were referring to how this phasing will work, together...because I also don't know how the western phase will be able to support full functionality once they demolish the old to build the second phase.

I saw a more detailed breakdown of how construction should work, somewhere...
Quote:
Originally Posted by chanyxp View Post
SSMEX: This video should answer your concerns.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TC7CrgJrCCc
Skip to 4:42 for phasing of the construction.
Ahh gotcha. That video clarified a lot. Thanks!
I still haven't found the video detailing the actual phasing, but I came across the PDF, again, that details it:




















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Old August 9th, 2017, 11:29 PM   #252
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There are some nice details about some of the design elements and shopping/food offerings (I particularly like the clauses floated about pricing).

Quote:
CEO of LaGuardia Gateway Partners Stewart Steeves is at the helm of a $4 billion overhaul of LaGuardia

August 6, 2017
Crain's



MODEL APPROACH: Sky bridges connecting two concourses will give planes more space, Steeves said.

"It is the most intricate airport project the world has ever seen. LGP will construct a new central arrivals and departures hall, two concourses, a parking garage, roadways and 2 miles of additional taxiway—all while operations continue at the facility. That means turning an airport with as many as 55,000 passengers, 40,000 vehicles and 1,000 aircraft movements a day, on a tiny parcel of land hemmed in by the Grand Central Parkway and the East River, into a giant construction site—almost like flying a plane while building it.

The makeover is a pet project of Gov. Andrew Cuomo, who has called for "a completely reimagined, integrated, 21st-century new LaGuardia." It's also long overdue. The airport was built to handle 8 million passengers; last year 30 million streamed through its doors, half of them through the 35-gate Terminal B (the other half through Delta's C and D terminals, which the airline is renovating, also for $4 billion)

LGP expects to earn a return on its investment through fees and operating revenue over the course of its 35-year ground lease. The improvements are designed to ensure LaGuardia can attract and accommodate more passengers. Airline fees will generate about 85% of the revenue LGP will need to pay down the project's debt and make a profit. Empire State Development, through its New York Transportation Development Corp., issued $2.4 billion in 30-year municipal bonds on behalf of LGP. The company's three equity partners (Vantage, Skanska and Meridiam) plunked down more than $200 million in capital. The Port Authority kicked in $1.2 billion, and passenger facility charges make up another $1 billion of the financing. With insurance and other costs, the total project value is $5.1 billion."


The old terminal will be torn down as the new one is completed. Parking and Concourse B will be finished in 2018. Most of the rest will be done in 2020.
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Old August 9th, 2017, 11:41 PM   #253
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Some renderings of what I seems to be Terminals A & B (Delta)?

Overall, it looks nice!

Concourses A & B on far left, below (parking deck to the left of the ATC Tower)






Inside one of the airbridges over the taxiway


I believe this is where the airbridge descends into one of the concourses (A and/or B?)


Much maligned AirTrain visible at left, below


What I presume is a view of the Headhouse/Central Hall


Presumably, inside one of the concourses (A and/or B?)
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Old August 10th, 2017, 09:14 AM   #254
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Quote:
Originally Posted by phoenixboi08 View Post

I still haven't found the video detailing the actual phasing, but I came across the PDF, again, that details it:





Brilliant! Those two images I quoted really clarify what's going on. The way the new headhouse interfaces with the existing central terminal building and the way the new concourses are built in relation to the existing concourses is pretty brilliant. I was somewhat doubtful they'd go with the passenger bridges between the headhouse and the concourses (a number of airports have planned to do the same but eventually went with an underground walkway), but it looks like that's for sure going to happen here because they need to connect the future concourses with the headhouse while existing buildings are still in the way.

I spent way too much time looking into proposals to try to understand the complete project and here's what I've learned, plus some more questions.

Original proposal in masterplan (summer 2015):



Updated proposal from summer 2016 with updated east side:



Annotated updated proposal:



Here are some observations:
  1. Unfortuantely, the unified island terminal layout has been abandoned in favor of a more traditional attached concourse layout for Terminal C. It's unclear why half the airport is one way and the Delta half is another, but it's actually quite a shame that we didn't get that once in a generation fully masterplanned airport.
  2. It may not be obvious in the picture, but the pedestrian bridges for Terminal C are gone. The bridges shown in the render don't have a taxiway below then, as this presentation proves: https://www.slideshare.net/francisto...rl-galioto-hok
  3. It looks like the new east side terminal will just be called Terminal C and the Terminal D term will be phased out.
  4. Lanside pedestrian access seems to be confirmed between Terminal B and Terminal C, but it's impossible to guess what airside access between terminals will look like. Based on the layout, I'm fairly confident there won't be any airside access between any concourses at all, except perhaps between the two pairs of concourses for Terminal C, if they have unified security within the concourse pairs.
  5. The renders don't seem to show the east garage, but it's mentioned in the signage in the interior renders and is confirmed by other planning documents. There's also supposed to be some sort of ATC tower for secondary ground control, but it's also not in the renders.
  6. The landslide connector between Terminal B and Terminal C seems to be awfully wide and substantial for something that probably won't be used very often.


This also raises a few new questions for discussion:
  • There's a mystery connector between the westernmost Terminal C concourse and the Central Hall between the two terminals. I can't for my life figure out what this is. I'm assuming it's a way for Terminal C passengers to access that panoramic lounge on top of the landside connector, but how does that work with security and do Terminal B passengers have airside access to that lounge?
  • What is the Central Hall even used for? It seems like passengers arriving by car or bus will go directly to the main terminal buildings and passengers arriving at Termianl C by AirTrain go directly to Termianl C. The only thing it looks useful for is an airport hotel and passengers using the AirTrain to get to/from Terminal A.
  • Is that a lounge on top of the Central Hall area?

Would love to know what others have been able to find in regards to these details!
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Old August 10th, 2017, 09:19 AM   #255
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I should also note that it's remarkable how few details there are of the Detla Terminal C side considering the project has already broken ground. AFAIK, there isn't an architect yet beyond the original HOK masterplan. Around the internet, there almost no detailed plans or drawings except for the renders from last summer.
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Old August 10th, 2017, 12:02 PM   #256
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It turns out what I posted above is actually Terminal C/D not A/B.

As far as the Central Hall, I'm fairly certain it's supposed to be consolidated arrivals/departures and baggage, but you bring up a good point regarding landslide connection to Terminal C; however, if you look closely, there appears to be provisions for pick-up/drop-off outside C, so perhaps they will separate security, baggage, etc between the Central Hall and C once the latter is built?

Will A & B will end up being for Int'l flights and C mostly domestic?

Also, what you've pointed out as the lounge might also be a hotel...?
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Old August 10th, 2017, 12:40 PM   #257
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Quote:
Originally Posted by phoenixboi08 View Post
It turns out what I posted above is actually Terminal C/D not A/B.

As far as the Central Hall, I'm fairly certain it's supposed to be consolidated arrivals/departures and baggage, but you bring up a good point regarding landslide connection to Terminal C; however, if you look closely, there appears to be provisions for pick-up/drop-off outside C, so perhaps they will separate security, baggage, etc between the Central Hall and C once the latter is built?

Will A & B will end up being for Int'l flights and C mostly domestic?

Also, what you've pointed out as the lounge might also be a hotel...?
It does appear that the Central Hall has pickup/dropoff, but it seems unlikely it it'd be used for baggage claims due to its relative narrowness. It seems too big to be some overlooked space, yet not nearly big enough to be a true consolidated arrivals/departures area.

The summer 2016 renders from Cuomo's Flickr page shows the central hall:





It just seems to be a really big annex to the main central terminal that also functions as a corridor to the landside connector. There are some check-in kiosks, but nowhere near enough to be the main departure hall for Terminal B.

Quote:
Will A & B will end up being for Int'l flights and C mostly domestic?
I don't think LGA gets nearly enough international traffic to warrant a separate terminal. IIRC, LGA currently can only accept international flights originating from U.S. pre clearance airports, as there are no immigration facilities.

Quote:
Also, what you've pointed out as the lounge might also be a hotel...?
I'm looking at the original 2015 renders and it looks like you're right. Weird how the interior 2015 renders show a hotel from the inside, but nothing on the roof outside.

For reference, here are the 2015 renders:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/govern...7654099192464/

And the 2016 (current) renders:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/govern...7669623874596/

These are available to really high resolution so it's useful for finding details.
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Old August 10th, 2017, 06:17 PM   #258
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The Central Hall appears to be a complete waste of a grandiose space unless i"m misunderstanding the purpose of it. What is going on there anyway? No retail exists in those renderings, just some seating and check-in machines. It doesn't seem to be a place where passengers wait for a flight. Wouldn't they go direct from check-in to security/gate? There doesn't seem to be security lanes either and the main check-in area is in the headhouse. Basically, it seems like a glorified connector/walkway that exists to funnel people to perhaps the hotel/lounge/airtrain/terminal C. Honestly it doesn't seem very "central" at all to the passenger experience and perhaps not the best use of that space.


This architecture critique isn't impressed: http://www.archdaily.com/771688/the-...and-uninspired.

I agree that the terminal could have been more interesting design wise. It doesn't quite compare to world class airports in other global cities as he thoughtfully described in his article using example photos from around the globe. You have to appreciate the sentiment that NY deserves to be up there with the best given its economic clout. Also airlines can't build stellar designs as they focus on efficiency/cost over beauty so I'm not surprised Delta eliminated the bridges. You can see examples of cost cutting - : skylights from the Central Hall in the latest renderings compared to the first are removed. Looks suspiciously like value engineering.

A hotel on top of the terminal would be very useful for layovers and bring in revenue. I hope they build it as it looks a pretty fun place to stay with good views, etc.

Last edited by JohnDee; August 10th, 2017 at 08:23 PM.
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Old August 11th, 2017, 03:13 AM   #259
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnDee View Post
The Central Hall appears to be a complete waste of a grandiose space unless i"m misunderstanding the purpose of it. What is going on there anyway? No retail exists in those renderings, just some seating and check-in machines. It doesn't seem to be a place where passengers wait for a flight. Wouldn't they go direct from check-in to security/gate? There doesn't seem to be security lanes either and the main check-in area is in the headhouse. Basically, it seems like a glorified connector/walkway that exists to funnel people to perhaps the hotel/lounge/airtrain/terminal C. Honestly it doesn't seem very "central" at all to the passenger experience and perhaps not the best use of that space.


This architecture critique isn't impressed: http://www.archdaily.com/771688/the-...and-uninspired.

I agree that the terminal could have been more interesting design wise. It doesn't quite compare to world class airports in other global cities as he thoughtfully described in his article using example photos from around the globe. You have to appreciate the sentiment that NY deserves to be up there with the best given its economic clout. Also airlines can't build stellar designs as they focus on efficiency/cost over beauty so I'm not surprised Delta eliminated the bridges. You can see examples of cost cutting - : skylights from the Central Hall in the latest renderings compared to the first are removed. Looks suspiciously like value engineering.

A hotel on top of the terminal would be very useful for layovers and bring in revenue. I hope they build it as it looks a pretty fun place to stay with good views, etc.
Agreed on the Central Hall criticisms but to be fair, its saving grace is that it's not actually that big of a space compared to the main terminal buildings. It's just a glorified corridor, and I think I'm totally OK with that.

The value engineering of the Terminal C skybridge definitely make me sad, but in the end is still immeasurably better than what we have now. I wouldn't take the renders of the new Central Hall so seriously as they likely don't represent a finalized plan of any kind, but the 2016 renders definitely are less grandiose than the 2015 renders with the hotel.

The article you linked to is a bit puzzling. It's calling out the 2015 LaGuardia renders as uninspiring, but frankly to my eye the 2015 renders are beautifully cohesive. A lot of new airport terminals seem to be extravagant for extravagance's sake, and lot of the form just doesn't have any function besides being radical. The skybridges and strip layout of the 2015 terminal buildings are eminently practical and if well designed, timely and elegant.

There was an SHoP master plan for LGA before the 2015 announcement that looked a bit more radical, but frankly kind of ugly with two giant concourses:









Thoughts on the SHoP proposal?
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Old August 11th, 2017, 03:23 AM   #260
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One thing to add—if you look closely at the first picture of the SHoP plan, you can see that the eastern side of the terminal (bottom left of the picture) has a ferry terminal integrated into the main building. IMO, that's the right way to integrate ferry service to the airport. There's no way I'd ever take a ferry to the airport if it meant getting off at Terminal A and having to take an unreliable shuttle to the main terminal buildings.

The only way a ferry can be competitive with 7 train > AirTrain is if it went directly into the main terminal complex.
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