Seattle-area retail discussion

[arbeiter]

yeah, i don't know what his obsession with trees are, not that trees are bad. seattle is built out almost entirely, there aren't many forested areas except in the parks.

malls in the traditional sense are just not being built much anymore. although i am kind of surprised that there isn't a large town center style mall being built somewhere in the high-growth areas like woodinville or something.

[citruspastels]

not many forested areas? have you ever driven east of the city? ;-)

actually, alot of people come to the pacific northwest and kind of get this "enviromental utopia" vibe. it may be a rosy view of the reality here, but there is definitely a cascadian ideal here of living in harmony with the natural environment, and i think we do alot more to support that here than most cities in this country.

[citruspastels]

*double post

[arbeiter]

Originally Posted by citruspastels

not many forested areas? have you ever driven east of the city? ;-)

actually, alot of people come to the pacific northwest and kind of get this "enviromental utopia" vibe. it may be a rosy view of the reality here, but there is definitely a cascadian ideal here of living in harmony with the natural environment, and i think we do alot more to support that here than most cities in this country.

I said Seattle doesn't have many forested areas. East of the city is not the city. I'm well aware of the amount of forest there is, having been born here.

[citruspastels]

i was actually joking, but i guess emoticons dont always cut it. didn't mean to rub ya the wrong way

[-KwK345-]

Originally Posted by Bond James Bond

No, I was talking *just* about building malls on forested lots. Around here, large forested lots are usually out in the boonies. Malls, needing a surrounding population base of at least 100,000, are extremely unlikely to be located out in the boonies. Thus, they are unlikely to be placed on forested lots.

Yea but there are small forested areas that aren't in the boonies. So if there was a new mall to be build I'm sure there would have to be trees cut down. There are plenty of forested areas in the suburbs of seattle.

Originally Posted by WESTSEATTLEGUY

lol. This kid is so confused.

Yes I am.

Originally Posted by citruspastels

it may be a rosy view of the reality here

What do you mean?

[WESTSEATTLEGUY]

Listen, we (I am talking for us Seattlites), don't have the regular US idealist views. We like different things. So malls aren't that much of importance to us. I mean people don't really hang out it malls anymore. People rather go downtown or to Bellevue to buy clothes or see a movie. Kevin, i kinda get where your coming from since you live in Texas and a lot of things kinda revolve around a suburban center if you wanna go shopping or eat. But it's different in Seattle, since you probably have like 3 Applebees near you where in Seattle, I don't even think there is one in the city. It's just totally different view on a regular american lifestyle.

[citruspastels]

Originally Posted by kevin_wk

What do you mean?

well, first of all, seattle is better than pretty much anywhere i've been when it comes to the environment (one of the things that makes it my favorite city) but there are just some things here which i find inexcusible, like the fact that we don't have light rail yet.

so while its damn good, its just got room for improvement is all i'm saying.

[-KwK345-]

Originally Posted by WESTSEATTLEGUY

i kinda get where your coming from since you live in Texas and a lot of things kinda revolve around a suburban center if you wanna go shopping or eat.

Good point.

[Bond James Bond]

Originally Posted by kevin_wk

Yea but there are small forested areas that aren't in the boonies. So if there was a new mall to be build I'm sure there would have to be trees cut down. There are plenty of forested areas in the suburbs of seattle.

That might be true now and then, but it's not usually the case. As I said before, most - if not all - of the Seattle-area malls were built on farmland or pasture, not forests.

[-KwK345-]

Originally Posted by mhays

In each county, we have a boundary outside of which growth is much more strictly regulated. The reason is to protect forests as well as agriculture and other rural uses.

So is that area trying to limit sprawl to save forests and stuff? Sorry I'm fixed on the forest topic.

[arbeiter]

the Puget Sound area isn't 100% conifer forest. There are meadowy areas, madrona groves, farmland, etc. Many of the valleys in the foothills of the cascades are pretty open, and that's where you'd see a mall being built.

Suburban development *can* cause deforestation and does, but also many subdivisions leave many trees in tact (more than a shopping center world.) Another force to consider is commercial logging, which happens widespread in the lower mountains east of the Bel-Red corridor. Until you hit maybe Gold Bar, or even more closer to Skykomish, the mountains on either side of Highway 2 are often cut clear in spots.

[seattleist]

Seattle and its suburbs' forests were largely cleared in the decades following the city's original settlement, either to make way for development or for farmland. Old growth forests are only seen in the Olympic National Forest. The taller evergreens you may see on the Eastside (Bellevue, Redmond) are probably only half a century old. In areas that were left fallow since they were cleared, the natural succession of growth is from grasses and shrubs to alder and other deciduous trees, which provide nitrogen in the soil, and then coniferous trees such as the Douglas fir will grow in the shade of this deciduous canopy and eventually dominate.

Additionally, Washington State has strict growth laws meant to curb sprawl and preserve farmland and open space in the rural areas. Essentially, they have made clear boundaries around cities, outside of which building is pretty much illegal and anyone who wants to build outside of this urban growth boundary must apply for a variance.

Because of these laws and the strong downtown areas seen in Seattle and Bellevue, residents and developers favor density within cities rather than creating new shopping centers in the suburbs. This is especially true because undeveloped land in the Seattle area is much more expensive than most areas of the country. Any brand new shopping centers you see are modeled after urban settings and include outdoor retail with apartments and sometimes offices. This can be seen in Redmond Town Center, Mill Creek Town Center, and the upcoming Woodinville Village.

The only time I can remember trees being an issue in the development of a shopping center was when plans for the Redmond Town Center complex were changed to mitigate the impact on an endangered species of owl that lives in the forests surrounding the mall (but the mall itself was built on a former golf course- so no forests).

Also, existing shopping centers in the area are very strong, and I believe that most, if not all, major shopping centers in the Seattle/Bellevue/Everett metro area are in fact undergoing major redevelopments to integrate them into their respective cities, making them more pedestrian-friendly outdoor "villages", "town centers", or "lifestyle centers".

The best examples of this trend are seen at Totem Lake Mall in Kirkland and the Factoria and Crossroads Malls in Bellevue. Crossroads, for instance, has become a community center of sorts serving an amazingly diverse area, with a food court with foods from all over the world, and no national chains. There is also a miniature library that is extremely popular at this mall. These are all currently strip-mall like centers that will soon be redeveloped into urban complexes.

Totem Lake Mall redevelopment: http://www.ci.kirkland.wa.us/depart/..._Lake_Mall.htm

Crossroads Mall redevopment:
http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/htm...7_sher04e.html

To sum it all up, Seattle is moving away from "shopping centers" and moving toward stronger downtown areas and walkable, sustainable neighborhoods with integrated retail.

And, no, it has nothing to do with trees.

[Seattle FTW]

i absolutely LOVE the crossroads food court, i think its the best ive ever seen in a mall

[sequoias]

Seattle and its suburbs' forests were largely cleared in the decades following the city's original settlement, either to make way for development or for farmland. Old growth forests are only seen in the Olympic National Forest. The taller evergreens you may see on the Eastside (Bellevue, Redmond) are probably only half a century old. In areas that were left fallow since they were cleared, the natural succession of growth is from grasses and shrubs to alder and other deciduous trees, which provide nitrogen in the soil, and then coniferous trees such as the Douglas fir will grow in the shade of this deciduous canopy and eventually dominate.

There is some trees that are few hundred years old in Kirkland's O.O. Denny Park...oldest known tree in Seattle metro area is the 225 feet tall Douglas Fir which is 600 years old, I think. I need to check up on that.

The trees in Seward Park in Southeast Seattle average 100-200 years old in the old growth grove.

[-KwK345-]

Originally Posted by seattleist

Additionally, Washington State has strict growth laws meant to curb sprawl and preserve farmland and open space in the rural areas. Essentially, they have made clear boundaries around cities, outside of which building is pretty much illegal and anyone who wants to build outside of this urban growth boundary must apply for a variance.

Why are they trying to preserve open areas instead of forests? So there is more available farmland where you wouldn't have to cut down trees?
So saving trees isn't a big priority?

I have seen pics of Issaquah sprawl and it seems that some forests were cut down.
When I went to WA i saw logged areas but in a lot of them there were baby trees planted. Whenever trees do have to be cut down, are those trees used for lumber and stuff?

Sorry about this, i am obviously confused.

[-KwK345-]

Originally Posted by seattleist

Old growth forests are only seen in the Olympic National Forest.

I sqaw some pretty dense forests in the Rainier area.

[arbeiter]

Originally Posted by kevin_wk

I sqaw some pretty dense forests in the Rainier area.

that doesn't mean it's old growth.

i am confused what your purpose is on this thread... are you just a seattle admirer from afar?

[BoulderGrad]

Originally Posted by kevin_wk

Why are they trying to preserve open areas instead of forests? So there is more available farmland where you wouldn't have to cut down trees?
So saving trees isn't a big priority?

I have seen pics of Issaquah sprawl and it seems that some forests were cut down.
When I went to WA i saw logged areas but in a lot of them there were baby trees planted. Whenever trees do have to be cut down, are those trees used for lumber and stuff?

Sorry about this, i am obviously confused.

Correct me if I'm wrong on this, but when he says "open space" he simply means land that has not been built on yet. It doesn't specifically mean a grassy meadow in the middle of nowhere. It could very well have forest on it, it could also be a mud bog, a scrub meadow etc. etc. The idea of it is that its an area where nature is being left to itself.

Also, there are areas in these forests that are reserved for logging. Rather than clear cutting forests and just leaving the barren field, they will cut down a patch of forest and replant trees to be harvested 20-30 years later (depending on how fast the trees grow back). Many of the forests you walk through are second and third growth forests. Also if you look out on some of the mountains in the cascades, you will see many treeless patches on the sides of mountains. If you drive around Bainbridge Island across the sound from Seattle, you will see signs up along the road that say "this forest ready for harvest in 20xx".

[CrazyAboutCities]

I kinda wish that Northgate Mall would become one of world's largest shopping malls (call me crazy if you want to!) because it is first shopping mall built in USA. It would be nice to have one in Seattle metro area. Obviously, it will not happen period.

I hope one of these days downtown Seattle will get another vertical shopping mall with more than 6 stories.

Westlake Center needs to get renovated soon because of interior of this shopping mall is outdated and attract more retailers.

Yes, people still do hang out at shopping malls. I seen so many cliques at Seattle shopping malls in the past two and half years of living in Seattle.