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Old October 8th, 2008, 06:28 PM   #61
runNgunn
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Wind Turbine Plant Coming to Muncie

http://www.indystar.com/apps/pbcs.dl...NESS/810080322

"An Italian wind turbine manufacturer is expected to announce today that it will bring 450 jobs to the Muncie area.

Government officials confirmed that Brevini, an Italian company with U.S. headquarters near Chicago, is scheduled to make the announcement at a business park at I-69 and Ind. 332, where it will locate its new plant."

Thought this was an interesting fit for Muncie. Could manufacturing of green products be a good replacement fo lost manufacturing in Indiana? It seems to fit well in the Muncie community with Ball State's increasing focus on sustainability.
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Old October 15th, 2008, 07:04 AM   #62
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Muncie needs some kind of industry. Other than the university, it's a ghost town with very little job opportunities.
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Old November 22nd, 2008, 12:43 AM   #63
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Evansville: Architect eyes 3 sites for arena

Architect eyes 3 sites for arena
By Jimmy Nesbitt, Courier-Press, November 19, 2008

The thought of a huge arena occupying the lot where Erin O'Daniel's family has sold cars since 1934 puts the Evansville businessman at a difficult crossroads.

O'Daniel, the general manager of D-Patrick Ford, has strong personal ties to the 500 Walnut St. property. His grandfather, Joe O'Daniel, bought the lot and helped build a successful business there, one that Erin O'Daniel said still is going strong today, tough economy and all.

But with an architectural firm eyeing the property as a potential spot for a Downtown arena, O'Daniel said he also feels the need "to be a good corporate citizen."

Mayor Jonathan Weinzapfel said Wednesday that HOK is "keying on" three sites — one that would include the D-Patrick Ford parking lot and possibly the Executive Inn, the Civic Center parking lot and a site around the Old Greyhound Bus station on Sycamore Street.

HOK is one of three companies the city hired to end the arena debate. Weinzapfel said the companies will give a presentation to the Roberts Stadium Advisory Board in a public meeting in two to three weeks.

Soon after that, Weinzapfel and other city leaders are expected to make a decision on whether to replace the aging Roberts Stadium with a Downtown arena.

The sites were narrowed from a list of 11 locations suggested by Gateway Consultants, one of the original consultants in the arena debate.

"Those are the ones that made the most sense from the perspective of community development, traffic flow" and developable space, Weinzapfel said.

O'Daniel said he has not been contacted by HOK or the city about selling his property. But if an offer comes, he'll listen.

"We always want to be supportive of the city," he said.

Here's a breakdown of the sites, starting with the D-Patrick Ford parking lot:

n This site involves two possibilities. The first is a combination of Executive Inn and D-Patrick Ford. The site is bordered by Locust Street, King Boulevard, Walnut Street and Fifth Street. The 4.6-acre site is assessed at $5.3 million. That figure doesn't include the cost of demolishing the Executive Inn, which would need to be cleared to make room for an arena.

"A significant advantage of this site is the fact that it already has a bridge system in place from a garage and into the convention center," according to Gateway's site analysis. "Of particular importance is the bridge into the convention center. Connecting the two facilities would allow for a cross marketing of convention and conference space with arena-based activity."

The second possibility is the 6.9-acre D-Patrick parking lot, bordered by Walnut Street, King Boulevard, Chestnut Street and Fourth Street. This site has an assessed value of $3.8 million.

n The Civic Center parking lot is an attractive site because the space already is owned by the Evansville-Vanderburgh County Building Authority. With more than 12 acres of space, there's also plenty of room for a 10,000-seat arena, the size that Gateway recommended.

The added space provides "the building operator with options for accommodating specific parking needs for the building," according to the analysis. "A new arena at this location could have a strong urban presence at the corner of Walnut and Ninth streets."

n Two possibilities have been proposed at the Old Greyhound Bus station. The first is 4.75 acres. It is bordered by Sycamore, Fourth, Vine and Second streets. The city owns 17 of the 30 parcels in the area, which have a combined assessed value of $1.9 million.

The Greyhound site is only a few blocks from Casino Aztar and is close to Main Street, which has seen a resurgence of residential growth over the last several years.

The second Greyhound site is 4.9 acres. It is bordered by Sycamore, Third, Court and Second streets. This site has 30 separate parcels and, like the first one, the city owns 17 of them. The total assessed value is $2.8 million.

"The Greyhound site, in this version, is architecturally more interesting, because the current bus station could be configured into the arena as an iconic architectural feature," according to the analysis. The station could be converted into a ticket office, retail store, gift shop, dining area or serve as an "iconic entry" into the arena.

The cost of a 10,000-seat arena has been estimated at about $92 million. In addition to recommending a location, the consultants also will present a proposal of how to fund an arena.

A date has not been set for the Advisory Board meeting, but board President Wayne Henning said the consultants originally had a Dec. 15 deadline to present a report.

Henning said he's eager to finish the stadium debate.

"It is complicated," he said of the more than yearlong process of board meetings, 100-plus page reports and presentations. "It was complicated 55 years ago for H.O. Roberts, and it's complicated today."

Henry O. "Hank" Roberts was the mayor in 1951 who began pushing the idea of building an events facility in Evansville that would put the city at the forefront of college athletics and entertainment. And for a period of time, it certainly did.

But by Dec. 1, 1956, the day Roberts Stadium was dedicated, Roberts was no longer in office. He was defeated a year earlier in the Republican primary for mayor, a loss some attribute to the building that to this day bears his name.
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Old December 2nd, 2008, 10:49 PM   #64
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Evansville: Auctioneer to take bids on 1850s hotel

Auctioneer to take bids on 1850s hotel
Ex-Washington House sale set Dec. 30
By Carol Wersich, Courier-Press, December 1, 2008

Imagine a multistory hotel on the corner of Third and Main streets in Downtown Evansville that is within earshot of docked steamboats on the river, dropping off or picking up hotel guests.

A watch is kept for the steamboats at all hours, day and night.

Passengers arriving by the night train can procure supper at the Washington House.

Horse-drawn carriage service also is provided by the hotel.

Though this may read like a romantic movie script from yesteryear, the setting was real in Downtown Evansville in the 1850s. But now the old hotel building will be the object of an auction on Dec. 30.

The building, which was built in 1854, sat amid other buildings on what then was considered the town square, said Dennis Au, the city's preservation officer.

Evansville founder Hugh McGary platted the square just 40 years earlier in 1814.

Across the street, on the northwest corner of Third and Main, a courthouse also was constructed in 1854. Although the courthouse is long gone, the 1854 Washington House building still stands proudly today.

Many area residents best remember it for housing the old Farmer's Daughter restaurant and WROZ radio studios in former years. Evansville businessman Andy Guagenti operated his restaurant there from 1962 to 1982.

According to Au, the building is the oldest existing commercial building in the general Downtown area.

On Dec. 30, the property will be auctioned by Curran Miller Auction/Realty Inc. at the request of owner Matt Johnson of Johnson Properties LLC.

The 24,000-square-foot building has four loft apartments, Turley Jeweler and Earth's Comforts, a shop that sells teas, candles and organic items.

Much of the building is vacant, but the Miller auction firm believes it is ripe for additional tenants as Downtown continues to be revitalized.

"The area will see the emergence of new restaurants, businesses, more loft and condominium development and a proposed new Downtown multi-use stadium," according to the Miller firm.

Au noted the fourth floor of the old hotel building still includes an orchestra-pitlike area and a balcony.

"It's turn-of-the-century looking," he said.

The building was renovated extensively in recent years, and now looks much like it did originally.

The late federal-styled Washington House, designed by Evansville architect Levi Clarke, was considered the largest and "most pleasantly situated" by 1858 of the city's 11 hotels, according to Au's records. Washington House closed in 1867.

Tobacco merchant J.G. Sauer then opened a cigar store on the main floor and in the cellar.

Part of the building was rented to Thomas and George Sanders as a "sales room" for their "Crockery and Queensware."

In 1870, H.R. Schroeder's cigar and tobacco store replaced Sauer's business.

That same year, the Evansville Commercial College occupied the building's second and third floors. The college remained in the building for at least 25 years.

Over the years, other tenants have included shoe and hat retailers.
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Old December 9th, 2008, 06:02 PM   #65
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"Sheridan's downtown soon will undergo a slight face-lift it's been seeking for some time.

A state grant of $12,500, announced last month, will let the town restore a mural, improve facades and create a pocket park for pedestrians. The town is one of nine in the state to be approved for funds from the state's Downtown Enhancement Grant program. The Office of Community and Rural Affairs administers the program."

http://www.indystar.com/article/2008...368/1304/LOCAL

It seems to me that supercharging this grant program would be a start in helping communities outside the reach of Indianapolis's economic influence to recover by becoming more desirable places to live and work. I know it is a pipe dream, but it would be nice.
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Old December 9th, 2008, 06:20 PM   #66
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Evansville: Arena debate nearing end

Arena debate nearing end
Stadium advisory board to present cost, site and payment study
By Jimmy Nesbitt, Courier Press, December 6, 2008

A new arena in Evansville could be successful if it's part of a larger plan to revitalize Downtown, according to a sports marketing professor at the University of Indianapolis.

"It's a tremendous opportunity," said Larry DeGaris, who has more than 10 years of experience consulting sports sponsors and professional teams and leagues.

"An arena encourages development, but it can't develop anything. ... (It) provides an anchor. If you're looking at a more comprehensive Downtown development, it's one piece.

"It needs to be one piece in a more comprehensive plan. If it's a stand-alone, and that's all you do, then it probably won't be economically successful."

Whether a new arena will spur additional economic development has been a topic of discussion in the debate over the future of Roberts Stadium. That debate is nearing an end. On Tuesday, the stadium advisory board will hear a presentation from consultants who performed a feasibility study for a Downtown arena. Their presentation is expected to include the cost of an arena, a plan to pay for it and a site, said Audra Levy, spokeswoman for Mayor Jonathan Weinzapfel.

The advisory board will meet Dec. 16 to make a recommendation to the city based on the results of the feasibility study. At that point, it will be up to Weinzapfel and the City Council to make a decision whether to continue what would be one of the largest capital projects in Evansville's history.

Arenas are both public works projects and economic development investments, DeGaris said. "They cross boundaries," he said. "And I think that's why they stir up emotions in both directions. ..."

The arena debate hasn't produced any strong organized opposition. Perhaps the most notable effort was created by Andrew Smith, a Republican who ran for an at-large City Council seat in 2007. Smith centered his campaign around a "Sewers Before Stadium" slogan. Less than a year removed from severe flooding on the Southeast Side that destroyed or heavily damaged 60 homes, the slogan gained momentum in those areas, and "Sewers Before Stadium" yard signs became popular fixtures on streets such as Washington and Weinbach avenues.

After Smith lost, the slogan slowly faded away. Arena skeptics recently have questioned the timing of the project, given the financial crisis and the ability to float municipal bonds. Weinzapfel has said he is optimistic the market will look different next year, when — if the project moves forward — the city would issue bonds. And, given the state of the automobile industry, housing and banking sectors, municipal bonds may be one of the safest investments, DeGaris said.

Financial impact

DeGaris analyzed an economic feasibility study that estimated the financial impact a new arena would have on Evansville. The study, conducted by Convention Sports & Leisure, a Wayzata, Minn., sports consulting company, was presented to the advisory board Aug. 19. It concluded that a new arena would increase direct spending by $5.6 million, with the new arena creating an additional 230 jobs with an additional $3 million in personal earnings. Those numbers hinge on Evansville attracting a minor league hockey team, one that would have 38 home dates with an average attendance of 3,500 per game. The president of the International Hockey League, Paul Pickard, has said he would strongly consider starting a franchise in Evansville if the city had an arena with an ice floor.

The financial projections are "absolutely" realistic, DeGaris said. Finding quality ownership would be critical to a franchise's long-term success, he said. "There are some minor league ice hockey teams in markets similar to Evansville that do tremendously well," DeGaris said. "And there are others that are in better markets with better facilities that struggle. It comes down to the organization."

One area that wasn't well-addressed in the study was the potential to generate revenue from out-of-town corporations. Arena management probably could count on local corporate sponsors such as Toyota, American General Finance and Mead Johnson to buy advertising. But drawing sponsorship from companies in cities such as Louisville, Ky., will be key to long-term success, DeGaris said. "That's outside money," he said.

Regional attraction

The arena also will need to become a regional attraction, he said. Because ticket prices for comparable events likely will be cheaper here than in larger cities, Evansville will have an opportunity to draw from cities such as St. Louis, Chicago and Nashville, DeGaris said.

Competition for outside spending will be intense, so to be competitive, "you need a state-of-the-art facility that's going rate," DeGaris said.

The cost of a 10,000-seat arena has been estimated at around $92 million. Gateway, one the consulting firms the city hired, suggested a 10,000-seat arena would be ideal for Evansville.

The advisory board has not settled on a specific number of seats, choosing instead a range between 9,000 and 11,000. Some board members have said they would like the arena to have more than 11,000 seats. The larger the arena, the more expensive the project will be. Arenas also tend to incur cost overruns, and DeGaris said to expect the final price tag to be higher than initial estimates.

That's not to say the investment isn't worthwhile, he said. Evansville is a well-positioned city in the Midwest with a large stock of healthy corporations, he said. Gov. Mitch Daniels has said that one of his priorities is stopping the state's brain drain — the loss of the brightest college graduates who relocate out of state. An arena, packaged with the lure of good-paying jobs, could help reverse that, DeGaris said.

Building a new arena certainly is a risk, but it's one that could make Evansville a destination city rather than an aging part of the Rust Belt, DeGaris said.

"Arenas fail because they're not leveraged," he said. "Arenas fail when people get the idea that once it's built, the job is done."
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Old December 22nd, 2008, 01:54 PM   #67
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Panel urges Evansville to build 11,000-seat downtown arena

Panel urges Evansville to build 11,000-seat downtown arena
Courier Journal, December 18, 2008

EVANSVILLE, Ind. -- An advisory board has recommended construction of an 11,000-seat downtown arena to replace the city's 52-year-old Roberts Stadium.

Work on the project, estimated to cost between $117 million and $127 million, could begin by next summer and be completed by the summer of 2011, said Mayor Jonathan Weinzapfel, who said it still needs final approval from the City Council.

With backing from business and labor leaders, the Roberts Stadium Advisory Board endorsed the plan Tuesday.

"It's been a steady process, step by step, from looking at Roberts Stadium to getting where we are tonight," Ed Hafer, president of the Evansville Regional Business Committee, told advisory board members at their meeting. "It's been a public process and I think that's very important. You've listened to people and you've incorporated their ideas."

The new arena would be on the site of a Ford auto dealership that the city wants to buy. According to the Vanderburgh County assessor's office, the property is valued at $2.7 million.

The city began considering a new arena after former City Council member Steve Bagbey, an advisory board member, questioned spending an estimated $32 million to renovate Roberts Stadium, the home of the University of Evansville basketball teams.

Bagbey said a new stadium would also benefit surrounding counties.

The funding plan would use tax money and casino revenue and "is really very simple, conservative and doable," Hafer said.

Bob Swintz, a financial consultant, said there were "no plans in place" to use property taxes to pay for the arena. If one of the revenue sources comes up short, other sources such as the innkeepers tax could be tapped to pay the debt.

Swintz has said that 75 percent of the project cost will be funded through long-term debt and 25 percent will be funded through cash on hand.

"For every $1 of debt service, we've identified $1.50 of revenue," Swintz said.

The county's food and beverage tax is being used to pay off bonds that were sold to renovate the city's convention center.

Those bonds expire in 2018, and state legislators would have to approve using the food and beverage tax for an arena. Weinzapfel said he has talked to state officials about making that change.
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Old December 29th, 2008, 09:29 PM   #68
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arena approved

the city council approved the new arena for evansville... below are the renderings provided to the city by hok venue. if you want the entire proposal you can download it too.

http://www.evansvillegov.org/downloa...s%20Center.pdf
(41.4 mb pdf document)



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Old December 30th, 2008, 03:24 AM   #69
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KICK ASS!!!
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Old December 31st, 2008, 02:47 PM   #70
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image hosted on flickr

PHILIPPINES
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Old January 6th, 2009, 09:29 PM   #71
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Damm Theatre Re-opens in Osgood, IN

The Damm Theatre re-opened recently in my home town of Osgood, IN (population 2,000). During my last visit to visit family, i was able to get a tour and it is truly a first-class theatre.



http://www.indianaeconomicdigest.net...rticleID=45120

Damm Theatre makes grand debut again in Ripley County

Osgood Journal
Wanda English Burnett, Osgood Journal Editor

Lights. Camera. Action. The stage is set at the Damm Theatre in Osgood for some spectacular entertainment the whole family can enjoy.

According to Steve Gloyd, executive director of the Gilmore and Golda Reynolds Foundation, owner of the theatre, the future holds many options for the theatre.

An open house held Sunday, December 28 was the kick off to the completely renovated building. A free movie, The Polar Express, was shown Monday evening and the regular movie schedule begins this Friday, January 2, 3, and 4 with Four Christmases (rated PG13) showing. Admission prices will be $4.00 for children 12 and under and seniors 60 and older. Others will be charged $6.00.

Along with showing movies, there are plans to bring in a variety of live stage entertainment including comedy, musicals, a magician and more. The Jac-Cen-Del Drama Club is already planning a live production in the spring.

"We'll try everything once and repeat what works," Gloyd told the Osgood Journal. Those in charge of the foundation say they'll find out what the community wants and go with it just as they did in restoring the theatre. When they polled the community a few years ago, the highest percentage of people responding said they would like to see the theatre restored.

A steady flow of people came through the doors of the Damm Theatre on Sunday for the first glimpse of the newly renovated historic building. Shirley Dunbar, owner of the Card and Gift Gallery next door to the theatre was first through the doors with a beautiful floral arrangement to commemorate the occasion and welcome her new neighbor.

Some visitors were seeing the theatre for the first time ever, others were remembering the old one and marveling at the state-of-the-art completed project. "People started coming at 11:30 and it's been steady all day," noted Ann Black and Karen Black, who greeted guests at the front door.
"It's really something," Bob Damm said as he came through the front door into the spacious entry way on Sunday. He is the last of the Damm family to own the theatre that dates back to 1914 when his grandfather, Louis, built the first theatre in Osgood. "Grandma would love this," Bob's wife, Judy, shared of his mother, Viola Damm, who "kept the theatre going even when she wasn't making any money." She passed away in 1989 and the movies were truly silent.

"I'm glad to see the theatre be a cause to bring people into town," Bob told the Osgood Journal. Both things mean so much to him - the theatre and the town of Osgood. Then with a twinkle in his eye, proving he still has a sense of humor, he said, "I was going to restore this (theatre) myself, but I ran out of petty cash!" The Damms are grateful to the foundation for making the theatre a wonderful place for the community to enjoy.

The theatre was purchased from the Damm family for $60,000 in January of 2005. The project of restoration was awarded to a local contractor, the Poole Group of Dillsboro in December of 2006. By January of 2007 the initial work was begun to transform the facility from a non-usable one to the 9,469 square feet movie goers now see.

With none of the original theatre in salvageable condition, Gloyd said everything inside is new. The building was completely gutted and the massive undertaking begun. Almost two years later the final product was well worth the wait. Oh, there is one thing original in the building. A portion of an east brick wall on the upper level in an office remains in tact.

The décor is second to none with a visitor who has been involved in theatre in California and New York commenting on the exquisite beauty of the facility. She told one of the greeters it was actually nicer than some she had worked in.

The rich gold colors on the walls of the lobby are complimented with red trim and tin-stamped ceilings. The spacious entrance boasts concessions to the right and large restrooms to the left. Taking the left or right you will come into the grand theatre room which seats 400. The carpeted aisles and comfortable seats are surrounded by deep navy walls accented with red and gold.

There is seating on three levels, something different from the original building. Matter of fact, the second floor used to be a dance hall and place to roller skate. That level was opened and the roof raised, creating a lofty space.

The stage is complete with a backstage area designed for set building. There are two dressing rooms. The lighting boasts the latest technology with 86 stage lights and a moveable spotlight. The 24-speaker system has Dolby digital surround sound.

The projection/control room is the heartbeat of the facility. Housed there is the 35 millimeter projector and platter system. Spencer Huffmeyer, grandson of Doug Thayer, treasurer for the foundation, has been very involved with the theatre. He explained that the free movie, The Polar Express, came on five reels which were spliced together and put on the platter, which threaded through the projector. Spencer says he's hoping to be involved more with the live productions planned by Jac-Cen-Del, where he is a freshman.

The movie screen will electronically drop down when movies are played and will be rolled up for the live productions.


Article © Copyright 2008 Ripley Publishing Co.. Inc
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Old February 6th, 2009, 10:25 PM   #72
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lifestyle center still a go

the evansville courier reported that a mixed-use lifestyle center planned for evansville's east side is still a go... an extension of cross pointe boulevard has been completed and the developers plan to move forward as soon as the economic climate improves. the 228-acre development called 'the promenade' is bounded by interstate 164 and burkhardt road. it will be the first development of its kind in the city. the development will include:

- high end retail shops and restaurants
- major hotel and convention center
- entertainment venues
- a variety of residential units
- several parking garages






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Old February 6th, 2009, 11:26 PM   #73
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Nice lifestyle Center!
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Old February 7th, 2009, 03:58 AM   #74
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It reminds me kind of like a smaller version of the Downtown Disney complex in Orlando. It does feel a little theme-parkish. Never-the-less, I hope it does well and is good for Evansville.
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Old February 8th, 2009, 04:58 PM   #75
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will be interesting to see this development as it moves forward. this is the first time the city will see a large scale development with a focus on architecture and landscaping. definitely a pleasant departure from standard malls and suburban developments!
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Old February 9th, 2009, 04:33 PM   #76
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Ball State plans $66M geothermal project

http://www.ibj.com/html/detail_page_...?content=31359

Ball State University plans to drill 3,750 wells, each 400 feet deep, to tap the earth's nearly constant temperature for campus heating and cooling.

The $66 million geothermal conversion project will eliminate the university's coal-fired boilers, which currently produce 85,000 tons of carbon dioxide a year, said Tom Kinghorn, Ball State treasurer and vice president of business affairs.

He said the geothermal wells would also reduce operating costs, promote a cleaner environment and create an estimated 870 jobs.

The university plans to start drilling on May 9, one day after spring commencement.

The project was approved by the university's board of trustees on Friday. Ball State plans to ask the Indiana legislature for $40 million, which was originally approved to replace the boilers.

Kinghorn said he hopes the school can benefit from part of the proposed federal stimulus package intended to support renewable energy projects.

"We think we are positioned to take advantage of economic stimulus money," he said. If that happens, the project could be completed in five years. Without federal aid, completion could take 10 to 12 years."

Trustee Frank Hancock expects federal support for the project, because "we are going to be leaders in something recognized nationally."

"It's the right climate, the right time to do this," he said. "It's great to be seen as somebody leading [the way]."

The ground in central Indiana maintains a nearly constant temperature of about 55 degrees, which is warmer than the air above it in the winter and cooler than the air in summer.

Geothermal heat pumps take advantage of this resource to heat and cool buildings, according to the National Renewable Energy Laboratory.

Ball State's geothermal system will include bore holes or well fields in open places like soccer fields, band practice fields and residence hall yards, three energy centers, water pipes and heat pump chillers.

Water will be circulated into the earth in a closed-loop piping system before being returned to the surface and distributed through the energy centers, which will act as central heat exchangers.


Good to see my alma mater leading the way in renewable energy!
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Old March 3rd, 2009, 09:30 PM   #77
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http://www.carbonmotors.com/blog/19/...n-the-State-of

I got an email from my mother today who lives in Connersville. Those of you familiar with the town know that the Visteon (previously Ford owned) plant closed there recently leaving them wondering what is next.

The article I was forwarded mentioned Connersville so, could be exciting.

Regardless, 10,000 jobs is huge should it come to pass
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Old March 6th, 2009, 03:51 PM   #78
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university center expansion

the university of southern indiana awarded contracts for the construction of the expanded university center and released the latest renderings. the central element of the project is a 97-foot tall conical tower. not sure what i think about the tower... it's designed by holzman moss in new york. anyone know their work or want to chime in on the design? anyway, here is the university release along with the renderings:

http://www.usi.edu/newsinfo/release/...l.asp?num=3032



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Old March 8th, 2009, 09:31 PM   #79
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that tower looks....um..... unique.
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Old March 12th, 2009, 11:19 PM   #80
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Regarding the article someone posted earlier about a new arena for Evansville:

Quote:
Originally Posted by seicer View Post
The arena also will need to become a regional attraction, he said. Because ticket prices for comparable events likely will be cheaper here than in larger cities, Evansville will have an opportunity to draw from cities such as St. Louis, Chicago and Nashville, DeGaris said.

I love the ambition and aspirations of small cities, but, can anyone please explain to me how a 10,000 seat arena (no matter how "new" it is) in Evansville is going to attract ANYONE from "St. Louis, Chicago, and Nashville?"

The article points to a minor league hockey team and maybe they have a convention or two in mind--but let's be realistic here.
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