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Old March 25th, 2010, 12:34 AM   #561
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The new railroad is mainly for us from Jutland to come faster to Sweden
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Old March 25th, 2010, 12:41 AM   #562
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Spikespiegel View Post
Building a motorway to Sønderborg, would be equivalent to us building a motorway to Faxe.
Faxe with a population of 3.914 has 8 KM to to E47/55 while Sønderborg with a population of 27.179 has ~30 KM to E45. Not quite the same in my book. I won't go into the argument about the exact motorway though, my knowledge of the current conditions in the area are more or less non-existent. However, with Danfoss on Als, who's most likely very good for the Danish state financially, and the fact the Aabenraa will be home to these peoples hospital in the future, I wouldn't rule out that a motorway could be a good idea. And not at all for the little price of 1.5 billion.

Quote:
About the extension of Holbækmotorvejen. It's only the section around Roskilde that is getting expanded. The motorway is the only way for people in the Northwestern Sealand to get to Copenhagen, as Roskilde Fjord is a national heritage site, and thus you cannot build a bridge across the fjord to help traffic. At rush hour, I can walk faster than the traffic moves on the motorway, which is why it's getting upgraded.
Wasn't talking about any new expansion, but about the part closest to Holbæk which is rather new. From exit 17-20 there's not much more trafic than on E45 from Aalborg to Frederikhavn, which often is metioned as an "empty" or "crazy" part (it is of course longer though). Check for yourself here.

Beside that though, I agree completely that new motorways should be analysed a lot more before they decided on anything, no matter if it's in Jutland, on Sealand or anywhere else. It does for example seem extremly hurried when they say there's already a majority for a new "Hærvejsmotorvej" just after a very superficial screening report. However, you can't always base these decicions just on current trafic volumes, things like future devopment needs to be taken into account, for certain projects atleast. E45 has been a very important factor in how Jutland has developed in the last many years, had it for example been build somewhere along "hærvejen", which was proposed many years prior to E45, it could have looked totally different today. I'm not saying the current line is good or bad, just that other things than todays trafic volues has to be considered.
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Old March 25th, 2010, 12:56 AM   #563
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Quote:
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Faxe with a population of 3.914 has 8 KM to to E47/55 while Sønderborg with a population of 27.179 has ~30 KM to E45. Not quite the same in my book.
I knew it was a bad example as soon as I had posted it :P

Let's say Næstved instead then. Næstved has som 15 km to the nearest motorway, and even though this is only halv the distance Sønderborg has, you also have to take into account that Næstved has a population of some 40.000.

If I were to prioritise motorway (or relief road) construction/expansion in Denmark, it would probably look like this:
1. Vejle Fjord
2. O5
3. Harbour Tunnel in Copenhagen, or an equivalent project
4. Aalborg
5a. Ringsted-Roskilde (Unless, of course, that the O5 is placed so that it makes a Ringsted-Roskilde motorway obsolete)
5b. Improvement of conditions in western Jutland. Whether this should be a new motorway, a new 2+1 road or just improvements of existing roads I don't know.
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Old March 25th, 2010, 01:18 AM   #564
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Yes Næstved would be a much better example. Btw, hasn't there been talk about a motorway stretch from Næstved to E47/55 for a long time, though without getting really close on getting decided? The city seems to have some problems at the moment, most lately with the decision to build the new hospital in Køge. Maybe that could speed up the motorway process.

I'll let you handle the prioritising, then I'll worry about the roads here in Jutland, where I atleast have some knowledge of the situation. Although it's hard times and all, we should still be wealthy enough to be able to improve our infrastructure all over the country (motorways or not).
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Old March 25th, 2010, 01:32 AM   #565
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Quote:
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Yes Næstved would be a much better example. Btw, hasn't there been talk about a motorway stretch from Næstved to E47/55 for a long time, though without getting really close on getting decided? The city seems to have some problems at the moment, most lately with the decision to build the new hospital in Køge. Maybe that could speed up the motorway process.
I used to live near Næstved, and tbh. the road between the motorway and Næstved itself isn't bad, and it would be pretty easy to put it to a standard that would easily allow traffic to flow freely.

I would remove one of the cyclepaths, and make the other path a dual-direction cyclepath. That way, you could upgrade the entire road to a 2+1 road at almost no expense. The only new construction in this project should be to divert the traffic around Holme-Olstrup.
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Old March 25th, 2010, 01:56 AM   #566
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I think there has been some contributions in the last 12 hours, who have mixed things totally together.

First of all: I am Jutlandic, live the first 19 years in Skagen, but lives in Copenhagen now, and study traffic and transport, so I will try to be objective.

Someone wrote, that the Jutlandic citizens where paying to Copenhagen projects as a harbor tunnel and the Metro Cityring. This is not correct. Both projects are financed by Copenhagen Municipality (and in the Metro case also Frederiksberg Municipality) and private investors (By og Havn eg.).

Someone could not see the idea in investing in a new railway Copenhagen - Køge - Ringsted. There cannot drive anymore trains over Roskilde and the new railway is necessary as eg. more freight trains needs to go through Copenhagen, the people want's shorter travel time (else the trains isn't an attractive alternative). The same person did not understand, why not build more stations on the stretch. This would increase the travel time, capacity, and the S-trains already goes from Køge to Copenhagen.

It seems like many Jutlandic users think the Frederikssund Motorway is as "stupid" as the Sønderborg Motorway. Frederikssund is a town in great development, and the last 10(?) years has the current road to Frederikssund been one of the busiest in Denmark. The road is a big barrier in the towns along the road (Ballerup, Måløv, Stenløse, Ølstykke), and especially the signal crossing with Ring 4 in Ballerup (Chokoladekrydset) is totally stuffed and chaotic. Further is the "finger" to Frederikssund the only one of the 5 fingers from Fingerplanen, who hasn't a motorway.

Objectively, I cannot see the big point in the motorway to Sønderborg (notice: I have enjoyed the Hirtshals- and Frederikshavn motorway a lot) - yet! I don't say that it never be build, but Sønderborg is a town with a stable development, and other towns in Jutland and on Zealand simply needs it more currently. The motorway is not a part of a new greater corridor, it only serves one fair sized provincial town, and it simply seems like the money could be spent wiser otherwhere.

Further, I think one of the ideas with the project, was generating new construction jobs in the area, but the Swiss company apparently wants it done fast (in 2 years instead of required 3) - some they are hiring foreign workers. This has failed.

Anyway, I hope you will enjoy the motorway after all, and maybe it will become a part of a new motorway corridor between the border and Odense (?).
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Old March 25th, 2010, 02:12 AM   #567
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Actually the motorway has been planned for some years, it's not something they just came up with to create jobs during the consturction phase. Check out the history here. It was originally supposed to be made by the county (Sønderjyllands Amt), but now it's being made as a so called OPP proejct where it's build by private funding and then the state "buy" it back over a number of years (as far as I know). I still have no opinion wether it's a good idea to build it.

And where do you find these "many Jutlandic users" that doesn't think a Frederikssund Motorway should be build? We aren't too many Jutlandic users here, and I can't find posts from any of us indicating "we" don't like the idea of a Frederikssund Motorway. It seems needed to me, build build build....
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Old March 25th, 2010, 02:13 AM   #568
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A last golden note from me before I go to bed:

The case of Jutland vs. Copenhagen can be for most of the project be summarized in one question: Should we build new infrastructure, where there is a need now OR where there is a need in a few years?

I am sure that everybody will agree that it ain't a "either-or"-question, but the debate here seems like it is. We need to invest both places, but we cannot built everywhere at once. It is too expensive and we don't have engineers or constructors enough. We must prioritize. And in my world, (sorry to say this) the Sønderborg Motorway should have a lower priority. But it is cheep and fast build, so it has probably slided through the process.
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Old March 25th, 2010, 02:16 AM   #569
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mlm View Post
Actually the motorway has been planned for some years, it's not something they just came up with to create jobs during the consturction phase. Check out the history here. It was originally supposed to be made by the county (Sønderjyllands Amt), but now it's being made as a so called OPP proejct where it's build by private funding and then the state "buy" it back over a number of years (as far as I know). I still have no opinion wether it's a good idea to build it.

And where do you find these "many Jutlandic users" that doesn't think a Frederikssund Motorway should be build? We aren't too many Jutlandic users here, and I can't find posts from any of us indicating "we" don't like the idea of a Frederikssund Motorway. It seems needed to me, build build build....
I might has read the last 10 post a bit fast, but it just seems in this, and the other Danish infrastructure-thread, as there has been some childish behavior, which ain't objective. Just wanna try to create an overview.
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Old March 25th, 2010, 02:29 AM   #570
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I can only find one person who comments on the Frederikssund Motorway in the last 3 pages, and he doesn't even claim it's a bad idea, just that it's a lot more expensive to build than Sønderborgmotorvejen. Surely far from "many Jutlandic users". <--- Comments like that isn't exactly helping making the discussion more objective. Should it happend that a user, who happens to live in Jutland, don't agree with you on something, then it doens't mean that "Jutland" is against it. [/rant off]

EDIT: Hope it wasn't too harsh, sry if so. I'm just so damn tired of the Jutland vs. Copenhagen crap that comes up again and again and again...

Last edited by mlm; March 25th, 2010 at 02:37 AM.
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Old March 25th, 2010, 03:13 AM   #571
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And now to something completely different than new motorways - Existing motorways!

I see that Vejdirektoratet has made a new page with all Danish motorways, gives a good overview of the current situation: Danmark Motorveje.
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Old March 25th, 2010, 05:18 AM   #572
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Found this pic of Köge Bugt Motorvejen at Vejdirektoratet:



The only motorway in the Nordics that has 5x2 lanes.
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Old March 25th, 2010, 12:05 PM   #573
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The copenhagen goods terminal is located in Høje Taastrup, so the goods trains would have to move through Roskilde anyway. Besides, I live only some 50 meters from the main line in Roskilde, and I never notice when trains pass.
The station in Køge will be placed outside the city limits, and thus it will not really be an important station. Sure, it will make it easier for people living in Køge to get to Jutland, but you don't choose to live in Køge if you go to Jutland often. People commuting between Køge and Copenhagen will not use the new line, as they would have to take the Roskilde train northbound (only departs twice an hour), then they have to get on another train at Køge Nord.
A bit off topic, but goods train in Denmark, is for 99% made up by transit from Sweden to Germany, and they will all go by the new line. They will never go anyway near the terminal in Høje Taaastrup, as they go without stop from Malmö to Germany. Only a very few local goods train are passing the terminal in Høje Taastrup.

Roskilde will miis all the express trains (that do not stop in Roskilde anyway) and the heavy goods train in transit. That means the current line through Roskilde will have more capacity for commuter train to Copenhagen which is also planned for. In addition IC train currently stopping in Roskilde will remain at the old line. All in all Roskilde will receive all the benefits and only miss out on the negatives.
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Old March 25th, 2010, 04:32 PM   #574
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kalaha View Post
A last golden note from me before I go to bed:

The case of Jutland vs. Copenhagen can be for most of the project be summarized in one question: Should we build new infrastructure, where there is a need now OR where there is a need in a few years?

I am sure that everybody will agree that it ain't a "either-or"-question, but the debate here seems like it is. We need to invest both places, but we cannot built everywhere at once. It is too expensive and we don't have engineers or constructors enough. We must prioritize. And in my world, (sorry to say this) the Sønderborg Motorway should have a lower priority. But it is cheep and fast build, so it has probably slided through the process.
I do not have a problem with the motorway to Frederiksund at all. I have a problem with arguments that states that because there is a lot of traffic then it is definitely a good idea to build a motorway, and because another road has less traffic then it is certainly a bad idea. The amount of traffic is one important factor but not the only one. It is overall costs against overall benefits that determines whether it is a good idea or not. Costs include first and foremost the cost of construction but also indirect costs related to environment, accidents, CO2 etc. Benefits is primarily time savings.

Without knowing these factors it is a bit premature to say which road is good and which isn’t. And it is a fact that for the Sønderborg motorway one side of side the equation (the cost side) is very low, and that it is much higher at Frederikssund. On the other hand the benefit side is probably higher for the Frederikssund motorway than the Sønderborg, but which one is left as the best one – I don’t know.

I agree that traffic wise a number of projects in and around Copenhagen come high on the list together with Vejlefjord as an example, but I find it hard to come with a conclusive list of priorities. Lots of other analysis/knowledge and not least cost/benefit analysis are needed in order to prioritize.

I could easily come up with a number of project like Århus-Viborg (where an official analysis with pre-design has just started), widening the Hillerød motorway from Allerød to Hillerød, Rønnede-Næstved (which is also being investigated according to the Vejdirektoratet web site), but concluding a priority list between them and for instance the Sønderborg motorway, the motorway to Frederikssund and Ring 5 is a bit ambitious.

And I agree let’s stop this east-west nonsense.

And one last comment Municipalities of Copenhagen and Frederiksberg is only funding the Metro with 50%, the remainder is coming from central government (By og Havn is not private – but government)
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Old March 26th, 2010, 05:18 PM   #575
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As you all probably know, most of Motorring 3 around Copenhagen has recently been renovated (The last part around Frederikssundsmotorvejen / Jyllingvej is currently being renovated). This motorway is the first architect-drawn motorway in Denmark.

The project has been long underway, mainly because one of the requirements for the project was that the motorway should remain open while being renovated.
I believe that the only time the motorway was closed to traffic, was a saturday morning at 7, when the bridge at Buddingevej was demolished:





The interchange to Hillerødmotorvejen:


The flyover at Hillerødmotorvejen, while this entire interchange was still under construction:


Ring 3 was built while the surrounding area was still not developed. Today the motorway lies in the middle of the city. One of the requirements for the new motorway, was that noise pollution should be kept to a minimum. Local residents report that they don't find the noise-barriers particular pretty, but they must admit that they are quite effective.






Lastly, there is a few pictures from when the motorway was still under construction:





The motorway pretty much looked like this the whole way from north to south, before being renovated. The major changes are 2 more lanes, better road surface and the noise reduction barriers.



(all images are from Vejdirektoratet's book, "Motorring 3 - en moderne bymotorvej")

Last edited by Spikespiegel; March 26th, 2010 at 05:25 PM.
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Old March 26th, 2010, 05:24 PM   #576
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Nice pics and presentation!
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Old March 26th, 2010, 05:53 PM   #577
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Every time I drive on Motorring 3 today, I say to whoever is with me in the car: "Damn, this is a beautiful motorway..."

And it is.
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Old March 27th, 2010, 12:15 AM   #578
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Quote:
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Every time I drive on Motorring 3 today, I say to whoever is with me in the car: "Damn, this is a beautiful motorway..."
I usually hate city-motorways (and I did hate O3 as well), but the renovated O3 is just... different. It has a special vibe to it, as you drive it.
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Old March 27th, 2010, 12:41 AM   #579
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At the present time, M21 is under renovation and expansion from 4 to 6 lanes around Roskilde.

At the same time, many of the ramps to Roskilde are getting remodelled.

The Trekroner exit used to only be serviced towards the east. It has been decided to also service Trekroner towards the west as well, to accomodate the increased traffic to Trekroner (mainly Roskilde University and the research centers there).


Københavnsvej will remain as it is now (Traffic coming from Copenhagen can only drive towards Roskilde - and the other way around - and traffic coming from Holbæk can only drive towards Hedehusene - and the other way around). They decided not to upgrade this intersection, probably because Københavnsvej is already operating at full capacity. Besides, the area is serviced by two other junctions close-by, Trekroner and Roskilde SØ.


Køgevej is getting a major (and much needed) overhaul. Usually, traffic coming from Copenhagen would exit in a t-intersection, that wasn't signal-controlled. This would cause major queues on the motorway, as people would have to wait until clear to exit. With the renovation, both exits end in signal-controlled intersections. This of course means that the Unicom-road (top left of this picture) will get closed. It was a company-road, that - while the motorway construction is undergoing, and Maglegårdsvej is closed - was opened to all traffic as a relief road to the technical and business schools. Also, Darupvej (in the south) will have to get redirected, and probably end in a non-signal controlled intersection further south.


Another major project is Ringstedvej. You could only exit here when coming from Copenhagen, and then you could only go south (out of Roskilde). Also, traffic coming from Roskilde was not able to enter the motorway here directly. I say directly, because just south of this picture (only like 20 meters) is a big intersection, where the south-bound traffic actually has a dedicated U-turn lane, so that the exit could also service traffic coming from/going to Roskilde. The new intersection will also only serve traffic to/from Copenhagen (Lindenborgvej is just next to it, and services Holbæk. See below), however it will now be much easier to get on the motorway when coming from Roskilde (or exit towards Roskilde).


The final Roskilde-exit that will be re-modelled is Lindeborgvej. Lindeborgvej used to only service traffic going to/coming from Holbæk, but will now get upgraded to also service Copenhagen, to take some of the pressure off the Ringstedvej intersection.


As of right now, work is being done on the bridge across Københavnsvej (Københavnsvej and the motorway both remains open during construction. The ramps, however, are closed in pairs), and the bridge at Maglegårdsvej (Maglegårsvej is closed. Both ends of the bridge has been demolished, so that the bridge can be made longer. Middle section still stands above the motorway).

Work is expected to be completed in 2013.
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Old March 27th, 2010, 12:47 AM   #580
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I've driven that motorway back in 2007. I was there during rush hour, and the road was busy (congested) from København until Roskilde. After Roskilde, it was free flow all the way.

image hosted on flickr
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