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Old December 1st, 2012, 11:43 AM   #1041
ChrisZwolle
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Both bridges are making profits. Some of the profits may be government compensations, much like railways (both bridges actually carry rail traffic). The bridges are at least not directly subsidized. Some countries allow specific audiences to travel for free, like students or senior citizens, the government pays for them. It's just regular revenue for the operator, but paid for with tax money by the government.
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Old December 1st, 2012, 02:41 PM   #1042
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To my knowledge the toll bridges in Denmark are not subsidized in any way that the rest of the transport infrastructure isn't already, and since they are the only user paid stretches in DK they are in fact less subsidized. The economies of both links are quite sound, and are scheduled to be paid of before time. the Great Belt fixed link much before time actually, due to higher traffic than forecast at the beginning of the project.
One slightly worrying thing is that the Great Belt company actually pays back some of its revenue to the state since 2009. So far the deal is for a fixed sum of 9 billion dkk paid through to 2022, but who knows if the government will allow it to stop once they have gotten used to the extra money..

Oh.. actually one quite significant financial aid the big bridges have are state backed loan guarantees.

Annual reports can be found here:
http://www.sundogbaelt.dk/uk/menu/pu...annual-reports
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Old December 3rd, 2012, 03:03 PM   #1043
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Originally Posted by metacatfry View Post
To my knowledge the toll bridges in Denmark are not subsidized in any way that the rest of the transport infrastructure isn't already, and since they are the only user paid stretches in DK they are in fact less subsidized. The economies of both links are quite sound, and are scheduled to be paid of before time. the Great Belt fixed link much before time actually, due to higher traffic than forecast at the beginning of the project.
One slightly worrying thing is that the Great Belt company actually pays back some of its revenue to the state since 2009. So far the deal is for a fixed sum of 9 billion dkk paid through to 2022, but who knows if the government will allow it to stop once they have gotten used to the extra money..

Oh.. actually one quite significant financial aid the big bridges have are state backed loan guarantees.

Annual reports can be found here:
http://www.sundogbaelt.dk/uk/menu/pu...annual-reports
There is no government subsidy towards the big bridges. In fact it is the other way around ,as Storebaelt was forced by the owner (The Government) to contribute with 9 billion DKK to the National Infrastructure Fund, which is funding all government rail and road projects until 2020. However there is a large cross-subsidiation between rail and road on Storebælt and Øresund, in the sense that the rail trafiic only is paying a fraction of the cost of the railway part of the fixed link. The bulk of the cost of the railway crossing are paid by the motorist.

This method will also be applied on the Femern Link, and is also anticipated on the proposed Kattegat Link. Currently nobody really knows whether traffic in a Kattegat Link will be sufficient to pay for the link. It is all awaiting a comprehensive national traffic forecasting model, which is expected to cpmpleted early 2013 (delayed from April 2012).

This model will be the big test for a number of big project currently being investigated for construction after 2020, including Kattegatlink, Ringway 5 around Copenhagen, Harbour tunnel in Copenhagen and Central Jutland Motorway (Kolding-Støvring) and a number of large railway project.

Those strategic Studies are planned to be completed late 2013, after which a political decision is expected.
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Old December 7th, 2012, 06:58 AM   #1044
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Compared to other Scandinavian countries, Copenhagen has very little congestion, not to mention compared to other European countries.
I would assume that this is largely due to the high number of people who cycle rather than drive?
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Old December 7th, 2012, 08:23 AM   #1045
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A high(er) number of people cycle in the Netherlands as well and it's significantly congested.

No, Copenhagen has an adequate road network, especially since they widened Motorring 3.
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Old December 7th, 2012, 10:18 AM   #1046
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A high(er) number of people cycle in the Netherlands as well and it's significantly congested.

No, Copenhagen has an adequate road network, especially since they widened Motorring 3.
I think it is heavily about geography and demographics, too.

Among the capitals of Scandinavia, Copenhagen is the only one located rather properly in terms of current traffic volumes. Oslo lies on a narrow area between the sea and mountains. Helsinki lies on a peninsula extending into the sea, and Stockholm is the most desperate one being built onto islands and a narrow land between the sea and a lake. For all these cities, it is an expensive task to build an effective traffic network.

The changes in demographics is an other significant factor. According to some statistics, the population in Copenhagen has gone down some 9% since 1960, and about 33% in the inner areas. This potentially relieves the pain.

During the same period, the population in the Helsinki metropolitan area more than doubled, and the area grew significantly. Heavy investments to the road network have been made, but still the growth seems to outperform them. The major congestion seems to gradually shift from the inbound radial roads to the ring roads. A rather new phenomena is the congestion of outbound radial roads during the afternoon rush hours. This results from the metropolitan area growing because of families escaping the high housing prices in the inner areas.
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Old December 7th, 2012, 11:19 AM   #1047
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There is no through traffic in Copenhagen.. Thats why it is not that busy.

And the motorways around Copenhagen are mostly 3 lanes with no big bridges and tunnels. So no big bottlenecks.

Only reason for the congestion is that everybody wants to start working at the same time. The rush hour is very short.
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Old December 7th, 2012, 11:20 AM   #1048
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Only reason for the congestion is that everybody wants to start working at the same time. The rush hour is very short.
I think it's more that they are forced to start working at the same time.
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Old December 7th, 2012, 11:31 AM   #1049
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I think it's more that they are forced to start working at the same time.
Are they really?

I do not what is the situation elsewhere, but I think quite a big fraction of the office workers in Scandinavia have an option to follow flexible working hours, or even work remotely at home.

Of course, there are constrains limiting the flexibility. If people carry their kids to school or daycare working on fixed hours, then the flexibility is more limited.

I think quite many people just follow their old habits related to working hours.
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Old December 7th, 2012, 12:02 PM   #1050
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Are they really?

I do not what is the situation elsewhere, but I think quite a big fraction of the office workers in Scandinavia have an option to follow flexible working hours, or even work remotely at home.

Of course, there are constrains limiting the flexibility. If people carry their kids to school or daycare working on fixed hours, then the flexibility is more limited.

I think quite many people just follow their old habits related to working hours.
So it means that if a big fraction of workers decide to go to work half an hour later, rush hour and jams are just delayed by half an hour
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Old December 7th, 2012, 01:00 PM   #1051
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New Motorway project

Vejdirektoratet (Road Directorate) has just released released feasibility studies for 2 proposed motorway projects.

1. Næstved-Rønnede (E47) approx. 14 km, currently an ordinary 1+1 road http://www.ft.dk/samling/20121/almde...82/1191300.pdf
where 2 options (in different alignments) have been studied, a 2+1 expressway and an ordinary 130 km/h motorway. The conclusion is that the 130 km/h motorway is the best solution with the highest internal rate of return (allmost 10 %)

2. Extension of the Djursland motorway approx. 17 km (Primary Route 15) eastwards, currently a 1+1 expressway http://www.ft.dk/samling/20121/almde...83/1191335.pdf. Here also 2 options have been studied, widening of current 1+1 expressway to a 1+2 expressway or widening to 110 km/h motorway (110 km/h due to current alignment). It is concluded that the motorway is the best solution vis-a-vis cost benefit ratio, but that the internal rate only is approx. 5 %.
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Old December 7th, 2012, 02:29 PM   #1052
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So it means that if a big fraction of workers decide to go to work half an hour later, rush hour and jams are just delayed by half an hour.
My experience tells a different story.

Earlier, the blue-collar hours begun at 7 and the white-collar ones at 8. That caused two rather sharp peaks in the morning. Nowadays, most of the white-collar people can begin any time between 7 and 9 or be even more flexible. The duration of the rush hours is longer, but the peaks are lower.
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Old December 7th, 2012, 02:59 PM   #1053
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I was just joking. Don't take it too seriously
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Old December 7th, 2012, 04:47 PM   #1054
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I was just joking. Don't take it too seriously
It is not necessarily joke... People sometimes behave like you said.
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Old December 7th, 2012, 07:44 PM   #1055
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There is no through traffic in Copenhagen.. Thats why it is not that busy.
I think there is a great deal of traffic on the outer motorway-ring, but it decreases abruptly after Roskilde where the E20/E47 splits.

The main reason that traffic volumes are not higher is probably because Copenhagen is located on an island,

There are few bigger cities (by scandinavian means) close to Copenhagen, so
the danish capital does not have to cope with that many long distance commuters.

As an example there are 4 cities with pop. +65.000 within a 100km radius of Stockholm, so that generates a great deal of traffic there. Pop density within 100km of Stockholm is about 150 inhabitants/km2

If you take the same 100km radius from Copenhagen, most surrounding cities are smaller, Roskilde the biggest one with pop 47.000. To the east is only water. Malmö transit traffic is petty in this context.

Despite the smaller surrounding cities danish pop density is 303 inhabitants/km2 on the island Själland. Twice as dense as Stockholm surroundings.
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Old December 7th, 2012, 07:49 PM   #1056
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København is significantly suburbanized. Even the outer parts of the København muncipality consists chiefly of detached single family housing. Apart from port facilities, nearly all industrial areas are in the suburban areas, which results in intersuburban commutes, in an area with a fairly adequate road network.

What are the plans for Ring 5?
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Old December 8th, 2012, 11:12 AM   #1057
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Quote:
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What are the plans for Ring 5?
There are none at the moment....

Or.. The Ministry of Transport are having a "strategic analysis" (which is a pre-pre-assessment) produced, to be published next year.
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Old December 11th, 2012, 02:59 AM   #1058
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A high(er) number of people cycle in the Netherlands as well and it's significantly congested.

No, Copenhagen has an adequate road network, especially since they widened Motorring 3.
With 49% modal share, major cities in The Netherlands have almost twice the automobiles per capita as Copenhagen .

Copenhagen has the lowest automobile modal share (27%) of any major city in the world. Most cities are well over 50%. What would happen if the 39% of people who currently cycle decided to drive their cars instead? Even just a quarter of them deciding to drive would instantly increase auto traffic by 30%.
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Old December 11th, 2012, 02:49 PM   #1059
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With 49% modal share, major cities in The Netherlands have almost twice the automobiles per capita as Copenhagen .

Copenhagen has the lowest automobile modal share (27%) of any major city in the world. Most cities are well over 50%. What would happen if the 39% of people who currently cycle decided to drive their cars instead? Even just a quarter of them deciding to drive would instantly increase auto traffic by 30%.
I don't know where you got that number from, but it seems that you got it wrong.

According to p. 2 in the link (Ministry of Transport/Trafikstyrelsen) (i am not able to upload an image), showing the market share (modal share) in a number of European cities, Copenhagen (together with Stockholm) has the highest car share, and the lowest public transport share.

http://www.trm.dk/~/media/Files/Publ...k%20-%20TS.pdf

Gang=Pedestrians
Cykel=Bikes/Cycling
Kollektiv Transport=Public Transport
Bil= Car
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Old December 11th, 2012, 05:05 PM   #1060
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Copenhagen has the lowest automobile modal share (27%) of any major city in the world. Most cities are well over 50%.
Hong Kong and Tokyo are not only bigger and arguably more important than Copenhagen. Their mode share for private motorised traffic, 11% and 12% respectively, is also way lower than that in the Danish capital.
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