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Old December 25th, 2012, 03:10 PM   #1081
ChrisZwolle
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Motorring 5

What is the status of Motorring 5? I can't find a real project site about it, but I did find some traffic studies.

I think Motorring 5 becomes more urgent when the Fehmarn Belt Tunnel opens (and maybe a tunnel at Helsingør as well), especially coupled with rail infrastructure because København is a bottleneck.
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Old December 25th, 2012, 08:57 PM   #1082
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I can't find anything much official. I think there is very strong and organized opposition and the political will has disappeared. I predict it will become a very strident topic in the coming years because the necessity will only keep rising while opposition will remain strong.
the most information at one site is this NIMBY site, only danish: http://www.nejtilring5.dk/
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Old December 25th, 2012, 10:12 PM   #1083
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Motorring 5 will clearly lead to more sprawl. It would be great for Sweden but I don't think its a good idea for the Copenhagen region.
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Old December 25th, 2012, 10:23 PM   #1084
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Not building motorways doesn't stop suburban growth. Just look at the Primærrute 17 corridor to Frederikssund (the only missing radial motorway of Copenhagen).
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Old December 25th, 2012, 10:50 PM   #1085
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisZwolle View Post
Not building motorways doesn't stop suburban growth. Just look at the Primærrute 17 corridor to Frederikssund (the only missing radial motorway of Copenhagen).
You really had to state something that obvious? Please.

I don't know enough about the traffic around Copenhagen to propose anything, but I'm sure there are better solutions than another ring. I seriously doubt that transit traffic from Sweden brings enough traffic to justify it.

Last edited by metasmurf; December 25th, 2012 at 10:59 PM.
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Old January 4th, 2013, 07:42 PM   #1086
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2013 tolls

The tolls for the Great Belt Bridge and the Øresund Bridge go up in 2013.

Great Belt Bridge: 235 DKK / € 33
Øresund Bridge: 325 DKK / € 45

In my opinion the tolls for the Øresund Bridge are too high for occasional users. Frequent users get heavy discount, but occasional users have to pay the full price. The price increased by € 10 in just 4 years. The bridge has been making profits since 2009, while toll rates have increased by 90 DKK since then.
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Old January 5th, 2013, 12:42 AM   #1087
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Expensive, i 'always' take the ferry

One of the reasons why it is so expensive.
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Old January 6th, 2013, 09:17 PM   #1088
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HH-ferries are just as expensive as the bridge ffs.
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Old January 7th, 2013, 02:27 PM   #1089
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisZwolle View Post
What is the status of Motorring 5? I can't find a real project site about it, but I did find some traffic studies.

I think Motorring 5 becomes more urgent when the Fehmarn Belt Tunnel opens (and maybe a tunnel at Helsingør as well), especially coupled with rail infrastructure because København is a bottleneck.
There is no project site as it is'nt an appoved project, or anywhere near it. It is one of several ring projects currently being studied at a very preliminary stage byt he Ministry of Transport. http://www.trm.dk/~/media/Files/Publ...adsområdet.pdf

Other ringway projects being investigated is an upgraded Ring 4 option http://www.trm.dk/~/media/Files/Publ...rridoren.pdfor an eastern Harbour tunnel http://www.trm.dk/~/media/Files/Publ...med%20logo.pdf

All of the projects are part of the socalled Strategic Studies launched in 2009 and planned to be completed in 2013, followed by a political decision in 2013-2014.

The Strategic Studies have 3 focus (roadwise): Ringway options around Copenhagen, East-west options (Kattegat link or not) and Jutland North-South (E45 widening and/or ned Parallel motorway). Of the Ringway projects in Copenhagen the harbour tunnel project is the most advanced one, as Ministry of Transport together with Municipality/City of Copenhagen in late 2012 decided on an alignment.
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Old January 11th, 2013, 04:46 AM   #1090
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisZwolle View Post
The tolls for the Great Belt Bridge and the Øresund Bridge go up in 2013.

Great Belt Bridge: 235 DKK / € 33
Øresund Bridge: 325 DKK / € 45
With rates like these, one might start considering the Gothenburg-Frederikshavn-ferry, bypassing both of these bridges. Depending on the destinations, of course.
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Old January 11th, 2013, 02:58 PM   #1091
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Yes, it's possible to use that ferry, if you travel at night, the ferry is slightly cheaper than both bridges combined (I did a test return booking 1 week ahead). If you travel during the day, you'll dish out about € 80 more on a return trip. The problem is that this ferry does not have that many departures. The advantage of the bridge is that you can arrive at any time for the same tolls, so no surprises there.
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Old January 11th, 2013, 03:36 PM   #1092
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ingenioren View Post
HH-ferries are just as expensive as the bridge ffs.
Try Scandlines, they are cheaper, I presume. Anyway ferry via Helsingborg-Helsingör is much more cheaper than Öresund bridge. When I drive to continental Europe or Germany, I usually buy a Kombi H+H and Rödby-Puttgarden or Gedser Rostock. Its cheap.
http://www.scandlines.se/farja/prise...by-puttgarden/
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Old January 11th, 2013, 04:04 PM   #1093
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisZwolle View Post
Yes, it's possible to use that ferry, if you travel at night, the ferry is slightly cheaper than both bridges combined (I did a test return booking 1 week ahead). If you travel during the day, you'll dish out about € 80 more on a return trip.
I checked the prices for Gothenburg-Frederikshavn v.v. at http://www.stenaline.se for the next July being the high-season. During the non-weekends, the pricing does not depend on the departure time, but the ferry and ticket type: Slow ferries SEK 599/899/1447 (eco/flexi/premium) and fast ones SEK 949/1249/1797 one-way. The approximate prices in euros are 70/105/170 and 110/145/210.

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The problem is that this ferry does not have that many departures.
Anyway, if you depart from Finland, a planning is necessary, because there are less connections between Finland and Sweden.

The bridges still are flexible in terms of timing. If I remember right, after their completion, I have never taken ferry, even if that would deliver savings in driving kilometres. The bridges cost 10 euros more than the ferries that is peanuts for the infrequent traveller.
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Old January 11th, 2013, 04:23 PM   #1094
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what about taking direct ferry from Finland to Poland, Germany, Baltic States?
Is that an alternative?

I know it's not really on topic, just asking...
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Old January 11th, 2013, 04:31 PM   #1095
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http://www.finnlines.com/
If you like to spend some looong and good time at boat, than go for it.
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Old January 12th, 2013, 04:14 AM   #1096
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cinxxx View Post
what about taking direct ferry from Finland to Poland, Germany, Baltic States?
Is that an alternative?

I know it's not really on topic, just asking...
It depends on your priorities and destination.

Sweden and Denmark are connected into the Central European motorway network, unlike the Baltic States. In fact, Estonia and Latvia don't have motorways at all, and even the Lithuanian motorways are next to useless for Finns driving to Central Europe, since they only radiate from Vilnius.

In other words, when driving through the Baltic States, count an extra day when compared to Sweden and Denmark.

But on the other hand, you could still save some money, since motels and meals are so much cheaper in Baltic States and Poland than in Sweden or Denmark. (And don't forget the bridge tolls...!) So basically, it's a question on whether you prefer time or money.

The ferry from Finland to Poland, let alone Germany, is a waste of both; but I guess those who don't like driving at all (and still travel with car...) could prefer that.
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Old January 12th, 2013, 11:04 AM   #1097
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Originally Posted by OulaL View Post
But on the other hand, you could still save some money, since motels and meals are so much cheaper in Baltic States and Poland than in Sweden or Denmark. (And don't forget the bridge tolls...!) So basically, it's a question on whether you prefer time or money.
There is one additional dimension not to forget: The high crime risk in the Baltic counties is reflected in the car theft insurance policies of the Finnish insurance companies. The deductible may be 20%-25% of the loss: If your car worth of 20000 euros is stolen there, your own risk is 4000-5000 euros. That is why people tend to avoid the east route and instead to drive via Sweden and Denmark.

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The ferry from Finland to Poland, let alone Germany, is a waste of both; but I guess those who don't like driving at all (and still travel with car...) could prefer that.
The Finnlines combo ferries Helsinki-Travemünde are quite fast: the sailing time is 27 hours. Not a big difference from taking ferry to Stockholm and driving to Germany. The route is mainly for cargo, and the time table is not very traveller-friendly: The departure from Travemünde takes place at 03:00 in the morning. The price is next to astronomic: 891 euros for two persons plus a car in the cheapest cabin during the summer high season.
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Old January 12th, 2013, 10:55 PM   #1098
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Orionol View Post
Try Scandlines, they are cheaper, I presume. Anyway ferry via Helsingborg-Helsingör is much more cheaper than Öresund bridge. When I drive to continental Europe or Germany, I usually buy a Kombi H+H and Rödby-Puttgarden or Gedser Rostock. Its cheap.
http://www.scandlines.se/farja/prise...by-puttgarden/
The Öresund bridge is not very usefull if you live anywhere north of the southernmost part of Sweden. It's an additional 50km drive to reach it.

The ferries from Helsingborg take only 20 min and they depart every 20 or 30 minutes.

On the ferry you have a break get some fresh air and order a meal which you don't do on the bridge.

If I go to continental europe I definately choose the route Helsingborg-Helsingör then Rödby-Puttgarden for western europe & Gedser-Warnemunde for eastern europe.

If you book the tickets in advance you save money. If you buy an instant ticket 4ppl+car Helsingborg-Rödby-Puttgarden it's about 110EUR for Gedser about 130 EUR One Way.

If you stay only 4 hours in Puttgarden though (for shopping) you pay only about 65EUR 5 ppl+car BOTH WAYS.

This summer I will probably choose the Trelleborg-Sassnitz line, which is an good option to the Gedser-Warnemunde ferry. It takes 4 hours
and cost about 90EUR. A lot cheaper than the Helsingborg+Gedser ferries but it takes longer and it departs only 3 times a day.

Actually now in january the Trelleborg Sassnitz charge as little as 45EUR for a
4 hour shopping tour in sassnitz 5ppl+ar BOTH WAYS, so prices vary alot.
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Old January 13th, 2013, 12:16 AM   #1099
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The Öresund bridge is not very usefull if you live anywhere north of the southernmost part of Sweden. It's an additional 50km drive to reach it.

The ferries from Helsingborg take only 20 min and they depart every 20 or 30 minutes.
It's a kind of gambling... if you don't need to wait for the ferry at all, you save some time. If you have to wait 30 minutes in the port you lose some time, since you could easily have driven that extra 50 km in 30 minutes, and more.

Last time I was lucky, it took maybe 10 minutes from exiting the E6 to the departure of the ferry, with me aboard... and with no reservation!

But since you have to drive on city streets, it also depends more on the traffic conditions than the bridge (all way motorway).

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Originally Posted by NordikNerd View Post
If I go to continental europe I definately choose the route Helsingborg-Helsingör then Rödby-Puttgarden for western europe & Gedser-Warnemunde for eastern europe.
From Copenhagen to Germany, I have always chosen the motorway via Kolding (with the Great Belt bridge), despite the fact that it's 150 km longer, mostly because the Puttgarden ferry has been so expensive. But since it seems that the rates have changed, I might think again on my next trip.
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Old January 13th, 2013, 11:47 AM   #1100
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It's a kind of gambling... if you don't need to wait for the ferry at all, you save some time. If you have to wait 30 minutes in the port you lose some time, since you could easily have driven that extra 50 km in 30 minutes, and more.
There are many things to consider. If I am driving from Finland to somewhere in the central Europe, this is always about my leisure time. Adding 50 kilometres or 50 minutes is next to nothing. I hate queueing in the ferry harbours, so I am somewhat biased towards taking the bridge alternatives.

The "bridge route" from the E4/E6/E20 interchange NE of Helsingborg via the bridges and Kolding to the Horster Dreieck S of Hamburg is 605 kilometres. It is 215 driving kilometres longer than the "ferry route" to the Horster Dreieck where the routes merge. Because of the waiting and crossing times on the ferry route, there is no much difference in time.

Anyway, I seldom optimize the driving in Denmark by cost or time. Instead, I select interesting places to visit, and avoid motorways whenever possible.
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