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Old January 31st, 2013, 08:50 PM   #1121
ChrisZwolle
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For me as a native Dutch, Danish, Norwegian and Swedish are all fairly easy to understand in written text, with Norwegian probably being the easiest. However in speech, Danish almost sounds like a Slavic language, while Swedish is probably the easiest to understand.

I can understand that especially Danish - Swedish is a substantial language barrier in both written text and speech. Danish - Norwegian appear to be a bit closer to eachother than Danish and Swedish.

If you look at traffic patterns, you see about 18 500 vehicles using the bridge and about 30 000 train passengers. Of course you cannot compare those numbers directly because the average car contains more than one passenger (especially on links like these). I don't know the numbers for the Helsingør - Helsingborg ferry, but truck volumes on the Øresund Bridge are pretty low, in fact the truck share as a percentage of total traffic is extremely low for an international connection. Usually truck shares at borders can go up to 30 - 45%, but in this case it's only about 5%.
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Old January 31st, 2013, 09:53 PM   #1122
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The summer I studied in France, there were lots of Swedes and Norwegians attending the same program, and I hung out with them. I found it striking that they could speak to each other in their own languages and understand each other. But there was a girl from Malmö who told me she couldn't understand spoken Danish.
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Old January 31st, 2013, 10:15 PM   #1123
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MattiG View Post
This is interesting.

Earlier, I believed the speech disorders called Scanian and Danish (sorry guys, cannot resist) are about the same language. During the construction time of the Öresund bridge, I happened to read an article in some local newspaper in Malmö telling me that the language barrier between Malmö and Copenhagen might jeopardize the birth of the commuting area across the cities. That was a big surprise to me after all that marketing Swedish as the Lingua Franca across the Scandinavia.
There are significant enough differences that I believe many are discouraged from seeking jobs across the Sound solely due to this. Nonetheless Copenhagens shops and restaurants are full of working Swedes, speaking swedish but still being understood well enough to service customers.
Danish and Swedish are different languages, but the differences are such that many are able to learn to understand the other language quickly without special lessons.
It depends on the direction though, Danish understanding Swedish: Ok. Swedish understanding Danish: More difficult.
That's what I hear anyway.

Chris, is truck traffic really different to other borders if we go by numbers of trucks?
I was just wondering if it is so low relative to total traffic because there is so much more car traffic across this border than most.
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Old January 31st, 2013, 10:21 PM   #1124
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Which are the main arteries for the commercial traffic between Scandinavia and the rest of Europe? Judging by ultra low numbers of trucks obviously not this bridge.

Last edited by Sunfuns; January 31st, 2013 at 10:59 PM.
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Old January 31st, 2013, 10:49 PM   #1125
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RV View Post
Assuming it's a bridge between two metropolitan areas just 10 Kms from eachother the traffic volumes on the Oresund bridge are really low.
Two very different cities in two different countries and an expensive toll result in poor traffic volumes.

But the rail traffic is quite busy, last time I took that train it was very crowded at rush hour.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Sunfuns View Post
Which are the main arteries for the commercial traffic between Scandinavia and the rest of Europe? Judging by ultra low numbers of tracks obviously not this bridge.
I would definately say that Rödby-Puttgarden is the main artery if you count all Scandinavia.

Gedser-Warnemunde /Trelleborg-Sassnitz for traffic to eastern europe.

Last edited by NordikNerd; January 31st, 2013 at 10:55 PM.
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Old January 31st, 2013, 11:01 PM   #1126
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Quote:
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Which are the main arteries for the commercial traffic between Scandinavia and the rest of Europe? Judging by ultra low numbers of tracks obviously not this bridge.
My guess is that many truck companies prefer the ferry routes Sweden-Denmark-Germany to the bridge one, as they save 200+ kilometres, and enforce taking the mandatory break. There are number of ferry routes to choose.

From Finland, there are four main arteries: 1) The ferry from Helsinki, Turku or Naantali to Sweden, then E4 to south Sweden etc, 2) Container feeder traffic to main hub ports Hamburg, Bremerhaven and Rotterdam, 3) Regular cargo/passenger combo ships from Helsinki to Travemünde, Rostock and Gdynia, and 4) Ferry from Helsinki to Talliin and then E67 via Estonia, Latvia and Lithuania to Poland and other eastern Europe.

The ferries between Finland and Sweden look luxury cruise boats. They are floating restaurants, but still a big part of their business comes from cargo. For example, the brand new m/s Viking Grace has 1250 lane meters for trucks and trailers, and 550 lane meters for cars. Part of the cargo area can be converted to a double-deck area allowing more space for cars.

Last edited by MattiG; January 31st, 2013 at 11:24 PM.
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Old January 31st, 2013, 11:06 PM   #1127
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Sweden-Germany truck traffic transits Trelleborg in great proportions.
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Old January 31st, 2013, 11:18 PM   #1128
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Travemünde - Trelleborg and Travemünde - Malmö were also popular among truckers. I've done those by truck some 10 years ago on a ride-along. These ferries indeed look like cruise ships wih all kinds of amenities on board.
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Old February 1st, 2013, 08:47 AM   #1129
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Two ferry lines with increasing volumes are Klaipeda (Lithuania)-Karlshamn and Gdynia (Poland)-Karlskrona.
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Old February 1st, 2013, 01:44 PM   #1130
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Quote:
Originally Posted by metacatfry View Post
It depends on the direction though, Danish understanding Swedish: Ok. Swedish understanding Danish: More difficult.
That's what I hear anyway.
On this topic, I've heard that:
Portuguese understands well Romanian, the other way around it's very difficult. And Romanian understands Italian and Spanish very good, while the other way around it's very difficult.

Another thing, many Germans coming from outside Bavaria complain they don't understand the people here, I came from Romania, while learning German (Hochdeutsch) as a child, so no Bavarian, but can't say that it is so difficult to understand them as their fellow Germans say. And I don't mean full spoken Bavarian at the country (that's hard to understand), but the city people, who mostly speak with accent, a little different pronunciation, but you can figure it out also by context if not 100% understandable at first...
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Old February 1st, 2013, 01:48 PM   #1131
g.spinoza
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As an Italian, I understand Spanish very well (without ever studying it), but both Portuguese and, to a greater extent, Romanian are like Arabic to me.
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Old February 1st, 2013, 02:00 PM   #1132
cinxxx
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As an Italian, I understand Spanish very well (without ever studying it), but both Portuguese and, to a greater extent, Romanian are like Arabic to me.
Exactly as I know it. For me Italian and Spanish are very similar, still I spot 99% the difference.
Do you have the same problem with reading in Romanian? I would say you should find many similarities with Italian...
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Old February 1st, 2013, 02:09 PM   #1133
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cinxxx View Post
Exactly as I know it. For me Italian and Spanish are very similar, still I spot 99% the difference.
Do you have the same problem with reading in Romanian? I would say you should find many similarities with Italian...
Two consecutive lines from Barack Obama article in Romanian Wikipedia:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Romanian Wikipedia
De la șase până la zece ani a trăit în Jakarta, împreună cu mama lui și cu tatăl vitreg, indonezian.
I only understand Jakarta and "indonesian". (And maybe "zece ani" means "ten years"?)

Quote:
Absolvent al Universității Columbia și al Facultății de Drept de la Harvard, înainte de a candida pentru intrarea în administrația publică și de a deveni membru al Senatului statului Illinois între 1997 și 2004, Obama a lucrat ca mobilizator comunitar, docent universitar și ca avocat specializat în apărarea drepturilor civile.
This in pretty clear to me, instead.

EDIT: But this is Danish page, let's end the OT here.
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Old February 1st, 2013, 02:41 PM   #1134
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Originally Posted by g.spinoza View Post
As an Italian, I understand Spanish very well (without ever studying it), but both Portuguese and, to a greater extent, Romanian are like Arabic to me.
Yes, but do you understand Sicilian?
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Old February 1st, 2013, 02:43 PM   #1135
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Originally Posted by Penn's Woods View Post
Yes, but do you understand Sicilian?
I had a Sicilian girlfriend for a while

But I think I can understand Sicilian a little less than I understand Spanish. It's northern Italian dialects that trouble me: Brescian (let's say - eastern Lombard) is Chinese to me.

Last edited by g.spinoza; February 1st, 2013 at 03:32 PM.
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Old February 1st, 2013, 02:44 PM   #1136
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There are som swedish guys at work. It was nearly impossible to understand them in the begining. Now, no problem. Lots of words are totally different, but you learn them very quickly. On the other hand the pronunciation is different in every words. Actually norwegian was easier to understand to begin with.
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Old February 1st, 2013, 04:02 PM   #1137
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MattiG View Post
My guess is that many truck companies prefer the ferry routes Sweden-Denmark-Germany to the bridge one, as they save 200+ kilometres, and enforce taking the mandatory break. There are number of ferry routes to choose.

From Finland, there are four main arteries: 1) The ferry from Helsinki, Turku or Naantali to Sweden, then E4 to south Sweden etc, 2) Container feeder traffic to main hub ports Hamburg, Bremerhaven and Rotterdam, 3) Regular cargo/passenger combo ships from Helsinki to Travemünde, Rostock and Gdynia, and 4) Ferry from Helsinki to Talliin and then E67 via Estonia, Latvia and Lithuania to Poland and other eastern Europe.

The ferries between Finland and Sweden look luxury cruise boats. They are floating restaurants, but still a big part of their business comes from cargo. For example, the brand new m/s Viking Grace has 1250 lane meters for trucks and trailers, and 550 lane meters for cars. Part of the cargo area can be converted to a double-deck area allowing more space for cars.
The landborder between Denmark/Jutland and Germany/Schleswig-Holstein is by far the largest transport corridor for goods transport between Scandinavia and The Continent

P. 10 in
http://detgodeliv.regionsyddanmark.d...%20feb2012.pdf (for those who understand German)

http://www.stringcorridor.org/media/..._structure.pdf

Four times as much is transported across the landborder Jutland/Schleswig-Holstein than across the Baltic (Rødby-Puttgarten + Gedser-Rostock), and two times as much goods are transported across the landborder than across Øresund (Øresends bridge + Helsingborg-Helsingør). Total goods transport directly from Sweden/Scania (by ferry) is on slightly larger than the one across Øresund.
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Old February 1st, 2013, 04:07 PM   #1138
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SeanT View Post
There are som swedish guys at work. It was nearly impossible to understand them in the begining. Now, no problem. Lots of words are totally different, but you learn them very quickly. On the other hand the pronunciation is different in every words. Actually norwegian was easier to understand to begin with.
I join the language discussion:

As a swede I understand norwegian without any problems. Danish you have to study a bit to understand, danish text easier to understand.

Danish/swedish have many false "friends" that is words that look the same but have different meanings, so misunderstandings are common.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Nikolaj View Post
Four times as much is transported across the landborder Jutland/Schleswig-Holstein than across the Baltic (Rødby-Puttgarten + Gedser-Rostock), and two times as much goods are transported across the landborder than across Øresund (Øresends bridge + Helsingborg-Helsingør). Total goods transport directly from Sweden/Scania (by ferry) is on slightly larger than the one across Øresund.
But that goods does probably come from Jutland/Fyn only, not from Själland/Sweden ??
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Old February 1st, 2013, 04:15 PM   #1139
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Originally Posted by ChrisZwolle View Post
I can understand that especially Danish - Swedish is a substantial language barrier in both written text and speech. Danish - Norwegian appear to be a bit closer to eachother than Danish and Swedish.
Written Norwegian (bokmål) originates from Danish from the time Norway was under Danish rule (1536-1814). In fact, the people of Oslo was at that time considered to be the ones that spoke the most fluent Danish. And this was an important factor when the capitol was placed in Oslo in 1814. Despite both Bergen and Trondheim being bigger cities. Bergen was over twice as big as Oslo at that point.

Spoken Norwegian on the other hand, has much closer ties to Swedish. Mainly because we share a huge land border. But also because we were under Swedish control for 91 years from 1814 to 1905. Before we finally became independent again.

These facts makes the Norwegians the ones that understands the other languages the best. Sweden and Denmark on the other hand, has been two different countries since the end of the Kalmar Union in 1523.

A report from last year shows these numbers.

Norwegians understanding (few or no problems)
Spoken Danish (65 %)
Spoken Swedish (83 %)

Swedes understanding
Spoken Norwegian (79 %)
Spoken Danish (35 %)

Danes understanding
Spoken Norwegian (65 %)
Spoken Swedish (46 %)
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Old February 1st, 2013, 05:25 PM   #1140
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nikolaj View Post
The landborder between Denmark/Jutland and Germany/Schleswig-Holstein is by far the largest transport corridor for goods transport between Scandinavia and The Continent

P. 10 in
http://detgodeliv.regionsyddanmark.d...%20feb2012.pdf (for those who understand German)

http://www.stringcorridor.org/media/..._structure.pdf

Four times as much is transported across the landborder Jutland/Schleswig-Holstein than across the Baltic (Rødby-Puttgarten + Gedser-Rostock), and two times as much goods are transported across the landborder than across Øresund (Øresends bridge + Helsingborg-Helsingør). Total goods transport directly from Sweden/Scania (by ferry) is on slightly larger than the one across Øresund.
The only conclusion to be done based that chart is that most of the freight flow from and to Sweden, Norway and Finland bypasses Denmark.
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