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Old May 8th, 2014, 06:40 PM   #1421
MattiG
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Natomasken View Post
What will happen when the construction costs are paid off?
The tolls are used for the endless repair of the bridge. Big bridges are like cathedrals: They are always under repair.

The bridge is a private company. There is no oblication to lower the prices.
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Old May 8th, 2014, 08:27 PM   #1422
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Those companies are state owned and once downpayed, tolls will be removed sometime mid 2030 decade.
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Old May 9th, 2014, 12:07 PM   #1423
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Those companies are state owned and once downpayed, tolls will be removed sometime mid 2030 decade.
Don't think so. It has neven said they will be free, when downpayed, and the general belief i Denmark is that it won't be free.

The income from Storebælt will most likely be channelled to other infrastructure projects. A likely candidate is a Kattegat-link from Kalundborg to south of Aarhus, which is a hot infrastructure topic i Denmark. The Kattegat link has a big political backing, but it is hugely expensive and will probably need som outside financing, outside of the direct users.
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Old May 9th, 2014, 02:47 PM   #1424
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Don't think so. It has neven said they will be free, when downpayed, and the general belief i Denmark is that it won't be free.
Denmark is a fragmented state dependent on bridges and ferries. I wonder if the cost of groceries and other goods that need daily transport is higher in Denmark compared to other countries due to that. Is Själland dependant on Jylland & Fyn
or vice versa or has the Great Belt made these two parts of the country selfsupporting ?
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Old May 9th, 2014, 02:51 PM   #1425
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The Great Belt Bridge carries a decent amount of traffic considering the tolls and lack of local traffic generation (larger cities are farther away). The Great Belt Bridge carries 30,000 vehicles per day.
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Old May 9th, 2014, 04:29 PM   #1426
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Originally Posted by NordikNerd View Post
Denmark is a fragmented state dependent on bridges and ferries. I wonder if the cost of groceries and other goods that need daily transport is higher in Denmark compared to other countries due to that. Is Själland dependant on Jylland & Fyn
or vice versa or has the Great Belt made these two parts of the country selfsupporting ?
Before the Great Belt fixed link Denmark used to be fragmented logistically, and most companies, not only supermatkets etc., had one west and one east logistics center. That has changed a lot since 1998, when The Great Belt fixed link was inaugurated. The general trend has been moving towards one logistics center for the whole country, usually located along the motorway corridor from Aarhus to Odense.

Denmark generally has relatively high prices, but I have never heard that its is caused by high transport cost. It is due to a generally high level of cost and salaries, and a relatively high tax level, including VAT. The bridge tolls amounts to very little in the overall price of transport, and in Denmark The Great Belt is only to a very small extent seen as a "toll" barrier.
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Old May 10th, 2014, 12:10 AM   #1427
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Driving in Denmark does not differ very much from driving in other countries, apart from the Great Belt bridge, of course. The ferries are mostly connecting minor places like - say - Ærø, or can be considered as nice-to-have short cuts but not as vital links.

Regarding the bridge toll, in Norway, it is in fact common that tolls are removed as soon as the road is paid down. I would not believe this to happen in Denmark. But it would be fair to lower the toll all the same.
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Old May 10th, 2014, 09:32 AM   #1428
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Driving in Denmark does not differ very much from driving in other countries, apart from the Great Belt bridge, of course. The ferries are mostly connecting minor places like - say - Ærø, or can be considered as nice-to-have short cuts but not as vital links.
I still think it differs quite much. It's a fragmented country meaning it consists of
3 major parts; Jylland, Fyn & Själland which are separated by water.

There are only two bridges connecting these parts (Little & Great Belt bridges) in many areas resulting in long drives compared to the actual bird's distance.
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Old May 10th, 2014, 09:46 AM   #1429
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Regarding the bridge toll, in Norway, it is in fact common that tolls are removed as soon as the road is paid down. I would not believe this to happen in Denmark. But it would be fair to lower the toll all the same.
Norway is not to compare. The idea is totally different there. The toll roads/tunnels/bridges are owned by the state, not a company. The toll covers a predetermined fraction of the construction cost only, plus the cost to collect the money. For example, the only 20% of the construction of Eiksundsambandet was financed by road tolls, and 80% was taken directly from taxpayers' pockets.

Everyone owning a house knows that the cost of ownership does not drop to zero when the loan gets paid down. The same applies to bridges and any other infrastructure, too. Typically, they are financed by a 30-year load, just to pay it down before it is time to get a new load for the major reparations. The cost of the major reparations is comparable to building a new bridge.
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Old May 10th, 2014, 10:46 AM   #1430
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Originally Posted by NordikNerd View Post
I still think it differs quite much. It's a fragmented country meaning it consists of
3 major parts; Jylland, Fyn & Själland which are separated by water.

There are only two bridges connecting these parts (Little & Great Belt bridges) in many areas resulting in long drives compared to the actual bird's distance.
I've worked in transportation in both DK/SW for years and Sweden is by far a more fragmented country then DK. Hours and hours in empty woods are just the worst.

When in DK you really don't feel the (short)distances at all in part because it looks the same on all the islands and traffic remain fairly dense all over.
Fyn/Jylland are real tight BTW, it's Ålborg and Lolland/Falster that are the most odd ones being hours from any other major towns.
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Old May 10th, 2014, 05:15 PM   #1431
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MattiG View Post
The toll roads/tunnels/bridges are owned by the state, not a company.
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Old May 10th, 2014, 06:38 PM   #1432
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Has the tunnel to Germany been started yet?
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Old May 10th, 2014, 08:06 PM   #1433
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So?

As the chart shows, the bridge is owned by holding companies, directly or indirectly. The ownership of the holding companies is irrelevant here: The government-owned companies must operate following the same rules as all other companies. Any deviation from typical financial principles can easily be interpreted as a violation to the competition policies of the EU.

As the cost to maintain the bridge will rocket close to its 30th birthday, and the also the maintenance costs are to be covered by the tolls, do not expect a major decrease in tariffs, even if the loans for the initial construction will be paid down.

The system in Norway really is fundamentally different. Do not compare apples to oranges.
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Old May 10th, 2014, 09:52 PM   #1434
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Has the tunnel to Germany been started yet?
No. The German plan approval procedure for the tunnel has recently started. It is (officially) planned to start the works in 2015 and open the tunnel in 2021.

If it would be a "common" German project, I would guess the plan approval procedure should last 2-4 years. But on one hand it is not a normal project, and on the other hand the opposition is big and they will probably take action at the court...
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Old May 10th, 2014, 10:04 PM   #1435
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Many Germans believe that not building the tunnel would save a lot of money to fund other projects, from what I've read in the media. Most don't realize the tunnel itself is toll funded and doesn't cost the German taxpayers anything. However the adjoining infrastructure in Germany has a big pricetag (they're talking about a 55 kilometer new rail alignment, plus upgrade of B207 in Germany.
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Old May 10th, 2014, 10:15 PM   #1436
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Yes and no. I think most Germans which are against the tunnel are against because:
- They are again every (big) (infrastucture) project
- They are NIMBYs
- They are Greens
- They think the costs for the new rail alignment are too high
- They think the new rail alignment could affect them or destry the nature

I read less about the B207 upgrade. I am sometimes reading about the Fehmarnsund crossing, but at maximum once a year about the road upgrade. The discussion is just about the railway.
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Old May 10th, 2014, 10:18 PM   #1437
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The German and Danish government signed a treaty to improve hinterland infrastructure. The treaty specifies a four-lane highway from Heiligenhafen to the tunnel, but it allowed the single carriageway Fehmarnsund Bridge to be maintained for the time being.

The Danish hinterland cost is near zero for roads (the motorway ends at the ferry terminal in Rødbyhavn), but they too need to expedite a large rail project (replacing the 3 km long Storstrøm Bridge).
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Old May 10th, 2014, 10:32 PM   #1438
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The German and Danish government signed a treaty to improve hinterland infrastructure. The treaty specifies a four-lane highway from Heiligenhafen to the tunnel, but it allowed the single carriageway Fehmarnsund Bridge to be maintained for the time being.
Yes. But government decisions and planning procedures with public participation differ. The German hinterland road is not discussed that means "no problem" or no big opposition.
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Old May 11th, 2014, 03:37 PM   #1439
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MichiH View Post
No. The German plan approval procedure for the tunnel has recently started. It is (officially) planned to start the works in 2015 and open the tunnel in 2021.

If it would be a "common" German project, I would guess the plan approval procedure should last 2-4 years. But on one hand it is not a normal project, and on the other hand the opposition is big and they will probably take action at the court...

Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisZwolle View Post
Many Germans believe that not building the tunnel would save a lot of money to fund other projects, from what I've read in the media. Most don't realize the tunnel itself is toll funded and doesn't cost the German taxpayers anything. However the adjoining infrastructure in Germany has a big pricetag (they're talking about a 55 kilometer new rail alignment, plus upgrade of B207 in Germany.
Seems as 6 year is a short deadline to complete such a big Project, but it sure would be nice if it would. Hopefully Germany can speed things up since they will no be funding the tunnel itself, if I am not misstaken.
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Old May 11th, 2014, 05:19 PM   #1440
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Seems as 6 year is a short deadline to complete such a big Project, but it sure would be nice if it would.
The contract says, that it is planned to be complete the tunnel until 2018 (Art.1,Abs.3). There is already a delay...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Festin View Post
Hopefully Germany can speed things up since they will no be funding the tunnel itself, if I am not misstaken.
Yes, Denmark is funding the tunnel, Germany only its hinterland infrastructure wherefore I have no idea how Germany should be ablt to speed up the project?
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