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Old June 15th, 2014, 09:12 AM   #1461
ChrisZwolle
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The toll for the Øresund Bridge was € 35 in 2010. It is € 49 today. That's a huge increase way above inflation.
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Old June 15th, 2014, 09:35 AM   #1462
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E20 Great Belt Bridge

Driving across the Great Belt Bridge. It's great!

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Old June 15th, 2014, 05:36 PM   #1463
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As for The Great Belt - I don't know, is it possible that it is partly subsidized by the state?
As far as I remember: yes, it is.

A colleague told me that Nordjylland had made it a precondition to approve the financing of the Great Belt bridge, that the Hirtshals motorway be built.
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Old June 15th, 2014, 05:38 PM   #1464
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Driving across the Great Belt Bridge. It's great!
Always stunning!
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Old June 15th, 2014, 06:13 PM   #1465
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The toll for the Øresund Bridge was € 35 in 2010. It is € 49 today. That's a huge increase way above inflation.
Seems huge indeed. Has the price for the ferry ticket risen similarily?
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Old June 15th, 2014, 06:29 PM   #1466
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Yes after one of the companys operating the HH link went under prices are now much higher + fuel has gone up.
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Old June 15th, 2014, 06:48 PM   #1467
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Imagine if they built a tunnel at Helsingør - Helsingborg. The route from Hamburg to Sweden would be 175 km shorter than today via the bridges.
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Old June 15th, 2014, 07:51 PM   #1468
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Imagine if they built a tunnel at Helsingør - Helsingborg. The route from Hamburg to Sweden would be 175 km shorter than today via the bridges.
Makes sense. Even Copenhagen - Stockholm would be shorter.
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Old June 15th, 2014, 09:16 PM   #1469
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As far as I remember: yes, it is.

A colleague told me that Nordjylland had made it a precondition to approve the financing of the Great Belt bridge, that the Hirtshals motorway be built.
Rather the state is subsidized by these bridges tough. They take out a profit from the company each year.
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Old June 16th, 2014, 10:52 AM   #1470
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Old Little Belt Bridge

The Old Little Belt Bridge (1935) in Middelfart. This is a combined road/rail bridge and was the only connection from Jylland to Fyn until the larger bridge opened in 1970.


Old Little Belt Bridge pano by Chriszwolle, on Flickr
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Old June 16th, 2014, 12:48 PM   #1471
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I drove the Øresund Bridge today again. The tolls are really too steep for tourists, it's just a scam. I know it's a bit cheaper if you get a BroBizz, but I don't want a subscription, or go through the hassle of returning it every year if I'm not sure I drive across the bridge next year...

The toll is € 49 one way. I wonder why the tolls are so much higher than at the Great Belt Bridge. Also, the Øresund Bridge tolls have increased quite a bit over the last 5 years.
The pricing regime for the two fixed link is different because the traffic structure on the two fixed link is very different. But the pricing system for each of the fixed link is decided by the best way of maximizing the income for the Brdge Company and primarily determined by two main conditions:

1. The total construction cost for each of the fixed links shall be recovered within a 30-40 year period
2. No subsidizing from government at all (on the contrary - as mentioned - the owner (the government) takes out a profit every year) and no cross subsidizing between the fixed links.

It has been discussed to stretch the pay-back time to more than 40 years, in order to reduce the price for crossing, but it turned out that this will only reduce the price marginally, as the main component of the price - with a 40 year pay-back period - is the interest payed. If the pay-back time is extended to more than 40 years, paying back the debt will be very sensitive to small increases in the interest rate, and the bridge company will thus risk the so-called "interest death".

The traffic across the Oresund is characterized by many commuters and few occcasional users - hence the income is maximized by a good discount for daily commuters and a relatively high price for the occasional user. The trafffic accross Storebælt on the other side is characterized by many occasional users, but relatively few daily commuters. Income is thus maximized by a relatively lower price for the occasional user and a relatively low discount for daily commuters.

It has also been discussed to lower the price, and thus generating more crossing traffic, and the outcome of this has been thoroughly analyzed. The problem is the nature of the traffic and how the users react to a changed price (priceelasticity), and it has turned out that the useres have a relatively low priceeleasticity - meaning that reducing the prices to lets say half price doesn't double the traffic, and that means that total income for the bridge company is reduced.

As a curiosum the price for the future Femern Tunnel will be even higher, as this fixed link faces the problem that the traffic here is charecterized by relatively little daily commuting a relayively few occasional users!

But again the price for crossing Storebælt or Øresund is not an issue in Denmark. The price is lower than the old ferry crossing and you save approximately 1 hour for every crossing.
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Old June 16th, 2014, 03:58 PM   #1472
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Imagine if they built a tunnel at Helsingør - Helsingborg. The route from Hamburg to Sweden would be 175 km shorter than today via the bridges.
This is a problematic thing, since the existing bridge hasn't been paid yet.

If the prices were the same, the amount of users on the existing brige would of course drop and thus make it even harder to pay. So should the toll on a new fixed link be actually more expensive, despite the fact that the strait is narrower?

Then again, we should remember that people like us are the minority. Despite the motorways stretching through all Europe in the south and (in the near future) through Oslo and Stockholm in the north, a vast majority of the users only travel between Zealand and Scania.
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Old June 17th, 2014, 01:56 AM   #1473
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Imagine if they built a tunnel at Helsingør - Helsingborg. The route from Hamburg to Sweden would be 175 km shorter than today via the bridges.
Hmm, I don't really get this. Is the Öresundbridge-detour 175 km? The Fehmarn-connection is going to cut non-ferry-transports a lot, but a HH-tunnel?

Last edited by jajaK; June 17th, 2014 at 02:02 AM.
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Old June 17th, 2014, 07:59 AM   #1474
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Hmm, I don't really get this. Is the Öresundbridge-detour 175 km? The Fehmarn-connection is going to cut non-ferry-transports a lot, but a HH-tunnel?
175 km is roughly the difference between the existing ferry free route (with Great Belt and today's Øresund bridges) and what it would be, with both Fehmarn Belt and Helsingør-Helsingborg tunnels.
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Old June 17th, 2014, 12:07 PM   #1475
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Hmm, I don't really get this. Is the Öresundbridge-detour 175 km? The Fehmarn-connection is going to cut non-ferry-transports a lot, but a HH-tunnel?
Save 150km with Fehmarn tunnel + 25km with HH. (More or less.)
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Old June 17th, 2014, 12:14 PM   #1476
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The Femern Belt Tunnel will only be profitable for me if the tolls are below € 50. Otherwise it's cheaper to drive around Kolding and take the Great Belt Bridge (€ 12 in fuel + € 36 in tolls).

But for most people time is money, so the Femern Belt Tunnel will pay off rather handsomely. But for leisure trips, time has less value.

Another upside is that you can avoid the boring trip up A7 through Schleswig-Holstein. There's absolutely nothing to see, except for the bridge across the NOK.

The ferry price is 499 DKK at the cheapest (about € 67). http://www.scandlines.dk/billetter/b...dby-puttgarden
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Old June 17th, 2014, 02:48 PM   #1477
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The Femern Belt Tunnel will only be profitable for me if the tolls are below € 50. Otherwise it's cheaper to drive around Kolding and take the Great Belt Bridge (€ 12 in fuel + € 36 in tolls).

But for most people time is money, so the Femern Belt Tunnel will pay off rather handsomely. But for leisure trips, time has less value.

Another upside is that you can avoid the boring trip up A7 through Schleswig-Holstein. There's absolutely nothing to see, except for the bridge across the NOK.

The ferry price is 499 DKK at the cheapest (about € 67). http://www.scandlines.dk/billetter/b...dby-puttgarden
A price of around 450-500 DKK (approx. current ferry price) is the expected price for a Femern Belt crossing.

But even at this currrent ferry price very few choose the Jutland route. The motorway across Funen/Southern Jutland is only expected to be relieved bye 200-300 vehicles a day after completion of the Femern Tunnel. This is probably a good indication that users value the time savings relatively highly.
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Old June 18th, 2014, 03:17 PM   #1478
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The Femern Belt Tunnel will only be profitable for me if the tolls are below € 50. Otherwise it's cheaper to drive around Kolding and take the Great Belt Bridge (€ 12 in fuel + € 36 in tolls).

But for most people time is money, so the Femern Belt Tunnel will pay off rather handsomely. But for leisure trips, time has less value.
Time may also be money for tourists, because there is a huge drop in accommodation prices between Denmark and Germany.

Starting from Stockholm early in the morning (as Finnish motor tourists, and of course the Swedish living in Stockholm area often do), it's an all day's journey through Sweden and Denmark. The question of whether Germany is reached 1,5-2 hours sooner or later may be relevant to the question about in which country the first night is spent. The difference in tolls is well compensated with a cheaper hotel.
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Old June 18th, 2014, 03:21 PM   #1479
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A good point. The tunnel will also bring Göteborg within 1,000 km of my city Stockholm is still out of reach in one day of reasonable driving. I know some people drive 1,600 km in a day, but that's too much for me. 1,000 km is doable, 1,200 km too if it makes or brakes one day driving to home or destination.
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Old June 19th, 2014, 07:55 PM   #1480
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I drove the Øresund Bridge today again. The tolls are really too steep for tourists, it's just a scam. I know it's a bit cheaper if you get a BroBizz, but I don't want a subscription, or go through the hassle of returning it every year if I'm not sure I drive across the bridge next year...

The toll is € 49 one way. I wonder why the tolls are so much higher than at the Great Belt Bridge. Also, the Øresund Bridge tolls have increased quite a bit over the last 5 years.
They really are absurdly high, considering that it's possible at the minute to get a single trip (car + driver) from Poland to Sweden for the same price on a ferry.

200 Euro return for Hamburg-Malmo is just ridiculous - and I would expect the ferry crossings to Trelleborg from Rostock/Sassnitz to remain busy.
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