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Old July 14th, 2015, 11:11 PM   #2481
Agent 006
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MattiG View Post
There is nothing in the AGR agreement forcing the member countries to do anything.
The term "shall" is also used in the agreement, but countries are off course free to break standards and demands in a treaty they sign. It's like the UN. We do not have an international police at this area eighter

Last edited by Agent 006; July 15th, 2015 at 12:03 AM.
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Old July 15th, 2015, 12:39 PM   #2482
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Then that was my part of learning today

Do you know the typical cross-sections of both of the roads on the pictures? The expressway felt like being about 15 meters wide, but that may have had something to do with the tall crash-barrier in the median.
In Italy, according to a 2001 law, the minimum width for motorways is 25m and for expressways 22m. However, this applies only to new built\upgraded roads, while most of our network is older than 2001 (a motorway opened 40 years ago remains a motorway, even if it doesn't meet modern standards). I don't know the width of roads you linked, but some expressways built in the 1970s were as narrow as 14 meters!
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Old July 16th, 2015, 01:35 PM   #2483
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Agent 006 View Post
The term "shall" is also used in the agreement, but countries are off course free to break standards and demands in a treaty they sign. It's like the UN. We do not have an international police at this area eighter
Right. As nobody is interested in enforcing an obsolete agreement, all the statements are recommendations only.

No country which has signed the AGR agreement, has implemented it as such.

I believe that a Swedish road engineer in 2010's knows better what is better for today's Sweden than an UN-driven committee knew in 1970's.
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Old July 16th, 2015, 05:56 PM   #2484
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Originally Posted by MattiG View Post
I believe that a Swedish road engineer in 2010's knows better what is better for today's Sweden than an UN-driven committee knew in 1970's.
Absolutely, however Germany felt it necessary to submit these changes to the AGR last year: http://www.unece.org/fileadmin/DAM/t...1-2014-01e.pdf

And France and the Netherlands have also submitted amendments to the 'shall' requirements (rather than the route descriptions*) in the last 10 years.

*Hungary, Estonia, Turkey, Bulgaria, Sweden and Norway submitted changes to route descriptions in the last 10 years.
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Old July 18th, 2015, 07:57 AM   #2485
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Originally Posted by sotonsi View Post
Absolutely, however Germany felt it necessary to submit these changes to the AGR last year: http://www.unece.org/fileadmin/DAM/t...1-2014-01e.pdf

And France and the Netherlands have also submitted amendments to the 'shall' requirements (rather than the route descriptions*) in the last 10 years.

*Hungary, Estonia, Turkey, Bulgaria, Sweden and Norway submitted changes to route descriptions in the last 10 years.
Sure. There are of people being paid for keeping the System up and running. However, this does not imply that the System would deliver any value to other people.

Bringing down national bureaucratic structures is difficult even if they have lost their importance. For international ones, it is almost impossible.
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Old July 18th, 2015, 11:10 AM   #2486
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Sure. There are of people being paid for keeping the System up and running.
A half an hour meeting of about 8 nationally-employed officials every 5 years or so, or a 15 minute agenda item in a larger meeting (both as - and the national organisations spending perhaps as much as a few person-days creating a proposal at about one proposal per year. That's so 'people getting paid' and 'the System'. The back end, international agreement*, side of the AGR (E roads) would surely have a high end estimate of costs in the vicinity of €5000/year.

I'm with you on international bureaucracy being impossible to get rid of, and famously wasteful (the attempts to get the Greek taxpayer to again take on crippling debt in order to bail out their stupid creditors who knew that Greece could never have paid back, but loaned them the money anyway, in order for the Greek taxpayers to once again be sacrificed to save the Euro (which is really what is being bailed out)), on the EU/ECB/IMF side a whopping €2 million on cutlery alone), however the UNECE's 'bureaucracy' in the area of transport is a website, an annual conference (with about 150 delegates) with the aim being knowledge sharing, and a handful of staff members organising it. The UNECE's Transport Cooperation is complete chump change, with the whole shebang costing hardly anything.

*which is binding on those that ratify it ('shall', etc), but with no consequences from the UNECE for ignoring it - perhaps as (eg here where the Kazakh government objected, and then relented to some of the proposals due to the poor standard/non-existence of some proposed E roads) the UNECE are the body that care the least about the minimum standards.
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Old July 20th, 2015, 11:33 AM   #2487
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In September 2012, Metasmurf posted a very comprehensive update on the state of the E4 in Northern Sweden. He made a map and a list of the current status of the road and which parts were U/C and under planning. His post can be seen here: http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showpo...postcount=1435

I thought it would be interesting to see how it turned out. Now, almost 3 years later, a surprisingly large part of the E4 from Sundsvall to Haparanda has been rebuilt to either 2+1 or 2+2 status. I will start by looking at the northernmost part, from Piteå to Haparanda.

Metasmurfs original map looked like this:

Green = Motorway
Light green = Motortrafikled
Yellow = Grade separated 2+1, essentially up to motortrafikled standard.
Orange = Grade separated 2+2, essentially up to motortrafikled/motorway standard
Blue = 2+1 with at grade intersections or mixed grade separated/at grade.
Dark Blue = 2+2 with at grade intersections or mixed grade separated/at grade.
Black = Regular 2-lane road
Red = Slow speed 2-lane road/city street with two our four lanes, traffic lights, roundabouts etc.
Brown = Under construction




Today, it looks like this:



1. Piteå - Boviken 6,5km Motorway (Sweden's northernmost stretch of motorway).
2. Boviken - Rosvik 14km 2-lane road.
3. Rosvik - Ersnäs 10km 2+1, no grade separation.
4. Through Ersnäs/Trafikplats Ersnäs 1,7km. U/C. Building of one grade separated intersection and widening to 2+2.
5. Ersnäs - Gäddvik 10,5km 2+2, mostly grade separated.
6. Gäddvik - Rutvik 9km 2+1 grade separated classified as motortrafikled (Sweden's northernmost).
7. Rutvik - Nickbyn 8km 2+1, one grade separated intersection.
8. Nickbyn - Persön 2km Upgrade to 2+1 with barrier, no grade separation.
9. Persön - Börjeslandet 4km 2+1 one grade separated intsecton.
10. Through Börjeslandet 1,5km 2-lane road.
11. Börjeslandet - Kalix 51km 2+1, partly grade separated.
12. Through Kalix 2,5km 2-lane road with mostly roundabouts.
13. Kalix - Sangis 17,5km 2-lane road with two grade separated intersections.
14. Through Sangis 1,7km 2-lane village thoroughfare.
15. Sangis - Harrioja 10km 2-lane road.
16. Harrioja - Salmis 12,5km 2+1 no grade separation.
17. Salmis - Haparanda 7km 2-lane road.
18. Haparanda - Swe/Fin border 2-lane road with roundabouts.

The major changes are:

2. Boviken - Rosvik: 14 km new 2+1 road as of 2015
8. Nickbyn - Persön: New 2+1 road, completion date unknown
10. Through Börjeslandet: Construction imminent, date unknown.
12. Through Kalix: New 2+1 road, finished 2015
13. Kalix - Lappbäcken: 2+1 road, finished 2014
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Old July 20th, 2015, 02:42 PM   #2488
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Is there a plan to make E4 a motorway all the way from Malmo to Haparanda? Or simply traffic volumes in the north don't justify it?
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In real life, electronic toll collection was first introduced in Bergen, Norway in 1986, and well into the 21th century many countries still struggle to implement it.
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Old July 20th, 2015, 02:46 PM   #2489
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The Stockholm Bypass tunnels have been given new names;

http://www.trafikverket.se/Privat/Pr...ar-byter-namn/

Main tunnel northbound: Barkaby Tunnel
Main tunnel southbound: Skärholm Tunnel
North tunnel northbound: Akalla Tunnel
North tunnel southbound: Hästa Tunnel



http://www.trafikverket.se/Privat/Pr...ar-byter-namn/
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Old July 20th, 2015, 03:10 PM   #2490
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Is there a plan to make E4 a motorway all the way from Malmo to Haparanda? Or simply traffic volumes in the north don't justify it?
Traffic volumes simply don't justify it.
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Old July 21st, 2015, 10:25 AM   #2491
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When considering the volumes at E4 until land border crossing in Haparanda, it is worth noting that the majority of the Swedish population lives more south than entire Finland.
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Old July 21st, 2015, 10:54 AM   #2492
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When considering the volumes at E4 until land border crossing in Haparanda, it is worth noting that the majority of the Swedish population lives more south than entire Finland.
Yeah, the demographic center of Sweden (last time SCB did the calculation in 2007) is en Hjortkvarn ("Deer-mill"): https://www.google.se/maps/place/697...00fef5b28cdac0
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Old July 21st, 2015, 03:49 PM   #2493
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Some new info regarding the tolls on the new bridges in Motala and Sundsvall.

Sundsvall:
Februari 2015: 201 000 vehicles crossed, 16 000 of those were foreigners. So 8 %.
Total billing: 1 927 000 kr, so rougly 10 kr per vehicle (including trucks).

Motala:
Februari 2015: 149 000 vehicles crossed, 14 000 of those were foreigners. 9 %.
Total billing: 768 000 kr.

However, 36 % of the foreign vehicles could not be billed due to difficulties with finding out addresses and names of registered owners.

Source: http://blogg.gp.se/trafikbloggen/201...vgiftsbroarna/
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Old July 21st, 2015, 04:05 PM   #2494
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That's quite a high share of foreigners.
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Old July 22nd, 2015, 12:01 AM   #2495
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Quote:
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Yeah, the demographic center of Sweden (last time SCB did the calculation in 2007) is en Hjortkvarn ("Deer-mill"): https://www.google.se/maps/place/697...00fef5b28cdac0
Hjortkvarn is about 250 kilometres more south than the demographic center of Finland, which currently lies in the village of Sotjala in Hauho, Hämeenlinna. The difference is much less than one could guess.

https://www.google.se/maps/place/147...00b553b98e3470

This Finnish Weber point is constantly moving to the south at a rate of about one kilometer a year. Interesting enough, the current position is almost exactly to the north of my place, at a distance of 108 km.
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Old August 4th, 2015, 11:24 AM   #2496
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Here's an interesting photo of the E4 outside Jönköping, taken in 1964.


Source: jp.se
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Old August 4th, 2015, 01:58 PM   #2497
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New bridge in Sundsvall.

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Old August 4th, 2015, 02:56 PM   #2498
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What happened to the car on the picture?
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Old August 4th, 2015, 03:08 PM   #2499
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The concrete came crashing down. The car was parked there, it was unoccupied at the time of the incident.

http://www.dn.se/nyheter/sverige/40-...-krossade-bil/
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Old August 4th, 2015, 06:30 PM   #2500
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No one was hurt. The pillar that fell doesn't have any supporting role for the bridge. They are starting an investigation.
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