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Old December 21st, 2015, 05:21 AM   #2661
Kanadzie
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Sweden actually uses the E-numbers though, like also Belgium

Whereas for comparison on Germany or France the numbers exist but are rarely signed and the state numbers have prominence
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Old December 21st, 2015, 05:54 AM   #2662
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Right. I think the Scandinavians and Belgians are leading the way (and the Brits are the laggards). That's why I don't get why people are complaining about it.
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Old December 21st, 2015, 10:33 AM   #2663
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Originally Posted by hammersklavier View Post
Right. I think the Scandinavians and Belgians are leading the way (and the Brits are the laggards). That's why I don't get why people are complaining about it.
E numbering is signposted in Germany but not used at all. I'm very interested in Autobahns but I've no idea about the correct E number of my neighboring Autobahn. I looked it up now, it's E41 .

It's quite strange because the continuing A3 (770km from the Netherlands to Austria) has the following E numbers: E35 (300km), E42 (45km), E41 (75km), E43 (22km), E45 (100km), E56 (225km) . No one is using anything else than A3 when talking about this Autobahn.....................
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Old December 21st, 2015, 11:53 AM   #2664
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Preserve the e-numbering system

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Originally Posted by Mirror's Edge View Post
E-nrs are useless in Sweden anyway, all roads should be Rv instead.
Bring back the old nrs ASAP.
I am totally against renaming the E4. The designation E4 is deeply rooted in people's minds and the green e-numbering is in use in many countries as a sign for an international road. The yellow Rv1 sign you posted looks very old fashioned and would perfectly serve as a sign for a historical route or as an alternative route for those who dont want to drive on the motorways.

Let the E-roads remain being main roads that differ from other national Rv-roads because they lead to an international border or a ferry-harbour with connections to continental europe.


The E4 116 km south of Stockholm

The E47 north of Rödby, Denmark

The E65 i northwestern Poland.
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Old December 21st, 2015, 04:03 PM   #2665
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Right. I think the Scandinavians and Belgians are leading the way (and the Brits are the laggards). That's why I don't get why people are complaining about it.
The E-route network was overlaid over the national routes in the 1950s. These national routes, which later evolved into motorways, primarily served domestic interests, they were not designed to form an international system.

For one thing, in many countries the road network does not form a grid, but the numbering system does, which means logical routes will have to use numerous E-numbers, while E-routes follow routes that are not logical, like E25, E28 or E44. Even in Norway, E6 is not the main road from Oslo to Trondheim (that would be Rv. 3).

That's why the E-road system is not used in practice in many countries, even if they are signed, almost nobody in Germany, France, Spain, Netherlands, Portugal or Austria would refer chiefly to the E-route numbers, they would use the national A-numbering system.

In addition, in many countries where E-routes are signed, they are only signed along the route itself. These numbers are often not signed on roads leading up to an E-route, or on the onramp of a E-route motorway. You would often only see the national road number.

In Denmark, there have been many new motorways built in the past 20 years that are not E-routes. But their administrative numbering is not as suitable for E20 and E45, as they change numbers too frequently. For instance E20 in Denmark is administratively designated M3, M10, M20, M25, M40, M50 & M52. These M-numbers are not widely known.
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Old December 21st, 2015, 04:06 PM   #2666
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(and the Brits are the laggards).
Heh! pick an example that has actually ratified the agreement and doesn't sign them. I'm pretty sure that Russia doesn't, and none of the -stans do.

Germany signs them really poorly - only on confirmation signs, and then only on motorways (see also, Ireland, which also didn't ratify the agreement) and only some of the time.

And it's not like Britain is joined to the mainland. You don't see calls for Cyprus, Iceland and Malta to have E roads (ignoring the E roads in Cyprus that are part of a national system), so what makes the British isles different here?

It's only really Swedes, Danes, Norwegians, Belgians and a few hobbyists (myself included) that care about E roads as route numbers for navigation rather than signifying that a route is important or whatever (eg Romania). The Dutch roadgeeks, for instance, think they are a total waste of time at best, and very unhelpful in many cases.
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Old December 22nd, 2015, 02:21 AM   #2667
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I remember trying to use my Google maps for GPS driving in Poland
It would only talk of E-routes and only show E-routes, meanwhile virtually all signs with DK number only (aside from new autostrada)
I got to learn the equivalents fast...
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Old December 22nd, 2015, 03:25 AM   #2668
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I don't want to remove the E-numbers in Sweden. But I believe its time for that Sweden should introduce a national numbering system. The national system should be introduced in parallel with the E-numbers. So it will not remove the E-numbers, but only supplement with national numbers.

E4 from Helsingborg to Gävle and Hudiksvall be signed M1 or A1. E6 from Trelleborg to the Norwegian border M2 and A2. Parts that are not motorway on the E4 can be signed just 1. Motorways and even Expressways can be called the M1 or A1, like they do in Switzerland.

I think it is better to motorways and Expressways get A-numbers than M-numbers. More people understand the A-numbers, even Swedes. A can mean the A-Class, the highest standard, or where the Autobahn / Autostrada are words that Swedes are familiar with.
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Old December 22nd, 2015, 03:37 AM   #2669
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisZwolle View Post
The E-route network was overlaid over the national routes in the 1950s. These national routes, which later evolved into motorways, primarily served domestic interests, they were not designed to form an international system.

For one thing, in many countries the road network does not form a grid, but the numbering system does, which means logical routes will have to use numerous E-numbers, while E-routes follow routes that are not logical, like E25, E28 or E44. Even in Norway, E6 is not the main road from Oslo to Trondheim (that would be Rv. 3).

That's why the E-road system is not used in practice in many countries, even if they are signed, almost nobody in Germany, France, Spain, Netherlands, Portugal or Austria would refer chiefly to the E-route numbers, they would use the national A-numbering system.

In addition, in many countries where E-routes are signed, they are only signed along the route itself. These numbers are often not signed on roads leading up to an E-route, or on the onramp of a E-route motorway. You would often only see the national road number.

In Denmark, there have been many new motorways built in the past 20 years that are not E-routes. But their administrative numbering is not as suitable for E20 and E45, as they change numbers too frequently. For instance E20 in Denmark is administratively designated M3, M10, M20, M25, M40, M50 & M52. These M-numbers are not widely known.
The problem with this argument is that it can also be applied to U.S. states -- particularly states that were building or had recently completed turnpikes (recall that 'turnpike' was the most common term for limited-access highways in the U.S. prior to the Interstate Highway Act).

For example, consider Ohio. This was the plan for their regional road network in the 1940s:



This is Ohio's current Interstate network:



Note the Ohio Turnpike, in red. Do you know how many Interstate designations that road has? I'll tell you. Three. I-80/I-90 in the west, I-80 as it dips under Cleveland to Akron and Youngstown, and I-76 east of Youngstown. That's about par for the course for the E-numbers on your Dutch and German motorways, as well as for other pre-Interstate highways that got Interstate designations. It means that that particular argument against wider adoption of E-numbers is fundamentally ungrounded, from an American perspective.

Coming back to the thread topic, that's also why Sweden's highway system is so legible. The hierarchy functions as: E-roads for the international links, national highways below. It works in fundamentally the same way as the Interstates and U.S. Highways, and being able to create legible continent-wide networks is one of the relatively few transportation-related things Americans actually excel at.
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Last edited by hammersklavier; December 22nd, 2015 at 03:46 AM.
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Old December 22nd, 2015, 06:21 AM   #2670
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It's sort of legible but the E-routes kind of avoid imparting a standard of class unlike Interstate routes (though, very much akin to US-routes). Sometimes on E-road you can legally run 125 mph safely and sometimes it is barely covered with asphalt

But - is Sweden really an international transit-country? Germany certainly is, maybe Poland and France, but Sweden being so north and covered with water... maybe is less relevant just from geography.
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Old December 22nd, 2015, 11:57 AM   #2671
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kanadzie View Post
It's sort of legible but the E-routes kind of avoid imparting a standard of class unlike Interstate routes (though, very much akin to US-routes). Sometimes on E-road you can legally run 125 mph safely and sometimes it is barely covered with asphalt

But - is Sweden really an international transit-country? Germany certainly is, maybe Poland and France, but Sweden being so north and covered with water... maybe is less relevant just from geography.
I would say it is.
Most, if not all, transit from continental Europe to Norway and Finland goes through Sweden.
Quite alot to the baltic states aswell.
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Old December 22nd, 2015, 02:44 PM   #2672
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I would say it is.
Most, if not all, transit from continental Europe to Norway and Finland goes through Sweden.
Quite alot to the baltic states aswell.

Also some traffic to Russia aswell.

So yes, Sweden is really an international transit-country in Europe
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Old December 22nd, 2015, 02:53 PM   #2673
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We have traffic from Norway to Norway as well in traffic going from southern Norway to Finnmark
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Old December 22nd, 2015, 04:02 PM   #2674
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As the E-numbering system is obsolete and because it has never brought a real value, my proposal is to just drop it.

Sweden can, of course, retain the current numbering including the white on green signs. The ex-E roads might be called express roads.

That would allow Sweden to decide on their numbering system by themselves. If that were too scary a single step to take, they could set up a temporary procedure for the next ten years: Ask King of Norway for a permission to change the road numbers.
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Old December 23rd, 2015, 05:09 AM   #2675
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MattiG View Post
As the E-numbering system is obsolete and because it has never brought a real value, my proposal is to just drop it.

Sweden can, of course, retain the current numbering including the white on green signs. The ex-E roads might be called express roads.

That would allow Sweden to decide on their numbering system by themselves. If that were too scary a single step to take, they could set up a temporary procedure for the next ten years: Ask King of Norway for a permission to change the road numbers.
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Old December 23rd, 2015, 10:12 AM   #2676
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head meet desk
MattiG is rather extreme in his views, but he's right - the E Road system, as it stands, is pretty pointless, and its benefit of them is minimal.

If Sweden (and Norway) cared about improving international travel, then the Tornio-Stockholm-Helsingborg road would be E55. Oh, and the E6 would also be numbered better. Either that, or they would have been adamant not to change their other roads to the new system.

The E4 and E6 are just one of many silly foibles that make the system useless - the strict grid makes many routes silly (eg zig-zagging).
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Old December 23rd, 2015, 10:40 AM   #2677
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I have to admit, that in general I really like the idea of the E-Roads, but the implementation is rubbish for most countries. It works for Norway, Sweden and Denmark somehow, but in central/western Europe the motorways aren't following the grid-system. This results in these totally non-sense fragmentation of one motorway-stretch into several E-Routes.
Still the system could work, if all the E-Numbers were rerouted. However then a new scheme is necessary and all signs need to be changed. (Less problem for countries like Germany, where nearly no sign apart from most confirmation signs)

On the other hand I don't find the E-Routes very useful at the moment. In the EU alone, each member is independent and so it's more like an U.S. citizen crossing the Canadian border, than crossing the state border of Maryland and Pennsylvania.
So I never struggeled with local motorway numbering, because I've never hold the thought in my mind, that there's a continuous European motorway network. Not only the numbering will change if you cross a inner European border, but also the design of the signs, the language (in most cases) and road surfacing marking are also totally different. So there's not even a visual consistency.

Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Road_s...markierung.png
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Old December 23rd, 2015, 01:04 PM   #2678
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in central/western Europe the motorways aren't following the grid-system.
Which is fine with a less rigid grid - the issue is not so much the grid-system as much as the poor (over-strict) implementation of it (meaning that the old system was probably better).
Quote:
This results in these totally non-sense fragmentation of one motorway-stretch into several E-Routes.
TBH, the most useful bit of the E road network is when a route uses several national numbers. That the German A3 is multiple E roads is fine, because if you want to travel the length of it, it still has one number 'A3'. But if you want to travel from Dusseldorf to Freibourg, you can (well, if the Germans signed them a bit better) follow the E35, rather than A3-A67-A5.
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In the EU alone, each member is independent


OK, transport policy is fairly decentralised, but Gibraltar (on the United Nations list of Non-Self-Governing Territories, despite being self-governing and not wanting independence) has more independence from the UK than the UK (including Gibraltar) has from the EU. And the UK is a country with a fair few opt outs - other member states are less independent (and many have chosen to be so).
Quote:
and so it's more like an U.S. citizen crossing the Canadian border, than crossing the state border of Maryland and Pennsylvania.
Even with the collapse of Schengen, it's far more like the latter than the former. Actually, going into Canada isn't too bad, it's just the other way back that is awful.
Quote:
So I never struggeled with local motorway numbering, because I've never hold the thought in my mind, that there's a continuous European motorway network.
Certainly there's nowhere near the level of centralised planning. There's TEN-T, TEM, other EU and UNECE corridors, but there's less of them than the NHS, HPC, ADHS, etc.

That said, the French network has got less Paris-centric in recent years, with more focus on transiting traffic (eg the A26 'Autoroute des Anglais'). That's the extreme example, as most places served the transiting traffic as part of serving their national needs, but certainly they are still pretty much designed for national needs, rather than continental needs (though, obviously, there's lots of overlap).

The interstate network was planned and build by the Feds (with the help of the states) and, while incorporating the pre-existing roads, there wasn't many already built at the time. Add in the pretty tight bounds when it comes to directional signage in the US (Europe doesn't have that, with the Vienna convention being rather broad on such things).

E Roads, on the other hand, were - like US routes - great at pointing out (now there's some grey area) which roads were the main ones in a time before widespread motorways and now are a bit of a faded relic (with almost none of the cultural iconic status). They are definitely not, however, the equivalent of Interstates. Perhaps the EU, within it's borders (plus Switzerland and Norway, as they have signed up to TEN-T) could make an interstate-style network of freeways. Though I'd argue for a non-grid numbering system!
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Old December 24th, 2015, 01:05 AM   #2679
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I don´t like the "new" E-Road numbering system. Supposedly logic, but so theoretic that no one cares about it. Road numbers should follow natural routes. I don´t like the Interstate numbering either, but it´s smarter than that of the E-Roads. What is the point of a system that gives you information of the type " oh am I driving east-west or north -south? Am I in the northern part of the country or the southern? I´ll check the road number at the next signing, then I´ll be sure" OMG. Useless.
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Old December 24th, 2015, 02:44 AM   #2680
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Why are people so obsessed with numbers? Write about cool projects.
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