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Old August 18th, 2012, 04:37 PM   #1341
kanterberg
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Well, reducing capacity on that road is completely unrealistic. The long term plan is, and always has been, some kind of tunnel solution, but that lies way into the future. However, the construction that is visible is my report is for a coming noise barrier. It will look something like this:



According to plans, the noise barrier will reduce the "noise pollution" from about 76-77dB to about 60dB, which is actually lower than on a normal city street. In addition, all buildings near the road have had 3-glass windows installed on the city's expense.

Today:
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Old August 21st, 2012, 02:08 PM   #1342
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Now Trafikverket (Swedish Road Administration) have started to change all the road signs along old "riksväg 80" to "E16", and it seems to be completed already in the Gävle - Sandviken area.

Thought I could share some pictures:

And a very nice bonus with Gävle getting this new E-road, is that Gävle now will replace Sundsvall as the signed city along E4 from Stockholm when driving north! Thats good! I think this is becauseTrafikverket uses the next city with a connecting E-road as signed city along E-routes. Don´t know if they have started to change those signs between Stockholm and Gävle yet though, or if they will start doing that when they are done with the E16 itself.

Along the Swedish stretch of E16 (360 km) they will put up 453 new signs and 178 cover plates.

1.


2.


3.


4.


And a nice winter view over the interchange where E16 meets E4:
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Old August 21st, 2012, 06:24 PM   #1343
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Quote:
Originally Posted by häggblom View Post
I think this is becauseTrafikverket uses the next city with a connecting E-road as signed city along E-routes.
Really? In that case the control city for the E4 southbound from Stockholm should be Norrköping (E22) and not Helsingborg. Same thing from Sundsvall, it should be Umeå (E12) but if I remember correctly the control city becomes Haparanda?

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Originally Posted by häggblom View Post
2.
As if Swedish signage wasn't cluttered enough already... is it really necessary to have one sign per lane here with essentially the same information?

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Originally Posted by häggblom View Post
And a nice winter view over the interchange where E16 meets E4:
Beautiful... and probably not any capacity problems for the next 200 years or so...
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Old August 22nd, 2012, 12:14 AM   #1344
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As if Swedish signage wasn't cluttered enough already... is it really necessary to have one sign per lane here with essentially the same information?
Indeed, they could've signed it like this instead.
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Old August 22nd, 2012, 12:26 AM   #1345
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kanterberg View Post

As if Swedish signage wasn't cluttered enough already... is it really necessary to have one sign per lane here with essentially the same information?
The information is not the same. You can easily see the difference. The ramp to Stockholm begins almost immediately after the sign. It would be a mistake to guide the Stockholm-bound traffic onto the left lane.
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Old August 22nd, 2012, 12:33 AM   #1346
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That is the classic struggle of road sign designers.
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Old August 22nd, 2012, 12:52 AM   #1347
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Maybe this will do?
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Old August 22nd, 2012, 12:56 AM   #1348
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kanterberg View Post
Really? In that case the control city for the E4 southbound from Stockholm should be Norrköping (E22) and not Helsingborg. Same thing from Sundsvall, it should be Umeå (E12) but if I remember correctly the control city becomes Haparanda?
Sadly (for Gävle...) that info was wrong! I got it from the local paper a few days ago, and today there was a correction in the paper saying that they had gotten all that info wrong So it will still be Sundsvall as control city from Stockholm...


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As if Swedish signage wasn't cluttered enough already... is it really necessary to have one sign per lane here with essentially the same information?
Hehe, I think there are two separate signs because in the right lane you have the exit to E4 south / Stockholm coming right up soon. Otherwise it would certainly just be one I´m sure.
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Old August 22nd, 2012, 02:08 AM   #1349
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I'm sorry, but it doesn't appear to me why the 68 nor even the 56 is signed there at all. Shouldn't E-routes just be E-routes, and then the national routes start where they start? Dual-signing this route for 40 km seems irrelevant. The 68 seems to be a more regional route, and not even a standard route for Örebro.
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Old August 22nd, 2012, 08:07 AM   #1350
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I'm sorry, but it doesn't appear to me why the 68 nor even the 56 is signed there at all. Shouldn't E-routes just be E-routes, and then the national routes start where they start? Dual-signing this route for 40 km seems irrelevant. The 68 seems to be a more regional route, and not even a standard route for Örebro.
It is the Swedish way to sign the routes in the end-to-end manner. Even if it leads to multiplexing, it is a traveller-friendly approach. I like it.

Especially in this case where substandard forest paths were nominated an European road, the European road numbering should not override the national one.
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Old August 22nd, 2012, 02:21 PM   #1351
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It is the Swedish way to sign the routes in the end-to-end manner. Even if it leads to multiplexing, it is a traveller-friendly approach. I like it.
I disagree, all the multiplexing and cluttered signs certainly do not provide a "traveller-friendly" environment for a driver. The E4/E16/56/68 interchange is a good example, there are many others all around the country.

Another problem with sticking to this principle is that sometimes the most logical route is not the signed route. The classic example is Stockholm-Göteborg where the fastest, shortest and safest route is E4 to Jönköping and Road 40 to Göteborg. Still, because of the obsession with end-to-end-signage, all the road signs tell you to take E20.
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Old August 22nd, 2012, 03:51 PM   #1352
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The latest videos about Norra Länken in Stockholm.



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Old August 22nd, 2012, 06:01 PM   #1353
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Quote:
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I've never heard about them falling down because of strong wind, but I don't have any hard data.

I can see how gantry design is challenging ; on the one hand you want them to be robust enough not to fall down and potentially killing people, on the other hand you want them to be soft enough so that people can survive crashing into them. It certainly seems like the current Swedish design doesn't meet both objectives, at least not when they are packed with both ordinary signs and electronic equipment.
I've thought to myself before that Swedish gantry look flimsy as well. They also in some areas seem way to close to the travel lanes as well, though in some areas I understand there is no other option due to limited space. It also seems the gantry is latticed? Is that the term for that metal design? Is Ice buildup an issue in winter?
In the U.S. I like the way Colorado for example uses these rounded solid gantries on Interstates. At any rate the ones in the U.S. look like they would kill anyone they fell on.
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Old August 23rd, 2012, 01:12 AM   #1354
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kanterberg View Post
I disagree, all the multiplexing and cluttered signs certainly do not provide a "traveller-friendly" environment for a driver. The E4/E16/56/68 interchange is a good example, there are many others all around the country.

Another problem with sticking to this principle is that sometimes the most logical route is not the signed route. The classic example is Stockholm-Göteborg where the fastest, shortest and safest route is E4 to Jönköping and Road 40 to Göteborg. Still, because of the obsession with end-to-end-signage, all the road signs tell you to take E20.
Agreed. E4 + Rv 40 should be the signed route. Also the remaining 2+1 strech west of Jönköping should be upgraded as soon as possible. It's a shame that there's no complete motorway connection between the nations largest cities.
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Old August 23rd, 2012, 09:40 AM   #1355
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It's a shame that there's no complete motorway connection between the nations largest cities.
No complete motorway between the largest cities. Remember that there is not much civilisation between these largest cities, also a "large city" in Sweden means 50.000 inhabitants.

We can't expect motorways to be built between all "large cities" when the population density is 21,9 inhabitants/km².

I don't think motorway is necessary between Jönköping-Borås, a 2+1 road will do for now in such a desolete section of the road 40. Same thing with the E20 from Stockholm-Göteborg. No need to upgrade all that motorway because it connects two large cities.

I recently drove the 2+1 road Norrköping-Katrineholm and it worked just fine, 2+1 roads also keeps the pace down.

I think most forumers here are a bit too enthustiastic about building motorways.

I would rather see the railway Jönköping-Borås be built before the motorway.
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Old August 23rd, 2012, 10:47 AM   #1356
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ScraperDude View Post
I've thought to myself before that Swedish gantry look flimsy as well. They also in some areas seem way to close to the travel lanes as well, though in some areas I understand there is no other option due to limited space. It also seems the gantry is latticed? Is that the term for that metal design? Is Ice buildup an issue in winter?
The trussed structure is not less rigid than a solid one by nature. Look at big tower cranes, for instance. They all are truss structured.

The gantry structure seen in the photos is in use in Finland, too, without problems. Any structure can collapse at a collision. If the structure is lightweight and energy absorbing, it is much safer at a collision than a heavyweight one.

The ice buildup typically is not a problem. In the arctic areas, the "snow shocks" are the key driver of the strength calculations of large roadside traffic signs: The ploughing might throw several hundred kilograms of snow and ice at the traffic sign at a high speed. The gantries are not targets of snow shocks.
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Old August 23rd, 2012, 10:51 AM   #1357
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No complete motorway between the largest cities. Remember that there is not much civilisation between these largest cities, also a "large city" in Sweden means 50.000 inhabitants.

We can't expect motorways to be built between all "large cities" when the population density is 21,9 inhabitants/km².

I don't think motorway is necessary between Jönköping-Borås, a 2+1 road will do for now in such a desolete section of the road 40. Same thing with the E20 from Stockholm-Göteborg. No need to upgrade all that motorway because it connects two large cities.

I recently drove the 2+1 road Norrköping-Katrineholm and it worked just fine, 2+1 roads also keeps the pace down.

I think most forumers here are a bit too enthustiastic about building motorways.

I would rather see the railway Jönköping-Borås be built before the motorway.
Well, I'm fairly sure what metasmurf meant by motorway connection between the largest cities was a motorway connecting Stockholm and Göteborg. No one is suggesting connecting all major towns even if your 50 000-inhabitant definition for a "large city" is just that; your own definition. Statistics Sweden (SCB) has it at 200 000 and I believe the Swedish Association of Local Authorities and Regions (SKL) still only define Stockholm, Göteborg and Malmö as large cities (storstad). Motorways connecting those three cities are certainly both desirable and justified, especially when it also means connecting three Scandinavian capitals.

When it comes to 2+1 roads I think there are many good arguments to build more of them, especially on sections where a full motorway isn't needed. To suggest that they help "keeping down the pace", however, does not make much sense. In fact, one of the great benefits of the 2+1 roads is the increased speed limit.
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Old August 23rd, 2012, 11:36 AM   #1358
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I disagree, all the multiplexing and cluttered signs certainly do not provide a "traveller-friendly" environment for a driver. The E4/E16/56/68 interchange is a good example, there are many others all around the country.
I would not call a direction sign with three road numbers and five destinations a cluttered one, especially if repeated.

Sweden seems to follow a strategy to consolidate the road numbers in order to create continuous numbering for several hundred kilometres. That strategy will lead to multiplexing in between the routes, too. I cannot understand why the multiplexing at the ends of the route would be more harmful.

Finland followed earlier a rather strict rule to not display the road numbers before they branch. That approach was found impractical one, and now those number are displayed again, with dashed frames:

https://maps.google.fi/maps?q=kokkol...34.52,,2,-8.17
https://maps.google.fi/maps?q=munkki...0.63,,1,-11.22

The strategy of long roads is subject to criticism, of course. It leads to rather funny solutions like the road 37 Växjö-Oskarshamn: Of its length of 122 km, only 24 km is not multiplexed with other roads.

(I did some comparison between the recents maps and my Norden Atlas from 1981. Sweden seems to very interested in playing the number changing game.)

Quote:
Another problem with sticking to this principle is that sometimes the most logical route is not the signed route. The classic example is Stockholm-Göteborg where the fastest, shortest and safest route is E4 to Jönköping and Road 40 to Göteborg. Still, because of the obsession with end-to-end-signage, all the road signs tell you to take E20.
Pure speculation: The E20 Stockholm-Göteborg might be a special case. Earlier it was E3 and thus part of the crown jewels because of the 'good' small number. The routing of E20 via Göteborg and Stockholm opposed to the initial proposal by the UNECE was a creative kludge possibly justified by the crown jewel status. If the Stockholm-Göterborg route were signed over Jönköping, the E20 might lose its status as an European road.

Anyway, I think most people plan their long-haul routes based on maps rather than the en-route traffic signs. If there is a numbered route between Gävle and Örebro, I see practical to show the signs for the whole route, not between a some place near Gävle to some place near Örebro.
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Old August 23rd, 2012, 02:49 PM   #1359
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They should sign Örebro instead of Gothenburg on the E20. And after Örebro, Gothenburg can once again be the control city. Surely this will mean less confusion.
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Old August 23rd, 2012, 03:36 PM   #1360
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I think the Swedish system is pretty much the same as in England. There are only few control cities. The main ones are London, Birmingham, Hull,Manchester and Dover. Everything else is the North, the South, the North-East, the West and South Wales. Bigger cities in between are signposted in interfalls. Same as in Sweden, where nearly everything leads to Stockholm, Helsingborg or Gothenburg. Everything else, with the exception of Jonkoping on the E4 route is unimportant.
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