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Old February 11th, 2013, 09:16 PM   #1581
Road_UK
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I'm glad we don't have this discussion on the UK thread, or we'd be going on and on and on and on and on about the significance of Luton, Milton Keynes, Northampton, Coventry, Leicester etc etc. None of them are control city's.
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Old February 11th, 2013, 11:15 PM   #1582
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Quote:
Originally Posted by -Pino- View Post
The area around Örebro has traditionally had some industrial significance, plus the area is, by Swedish standards, relatively densely populated. Not too dissimilar from the Norwegian E6 situation. From a route network perspective, too, there are comparable arguments too, since the current route of the E20 opens up an important region to traffic from the South, while Rv40 out of Göteborg does little else than being a spur route between Göteborg and the backbone of Sweden called E4.
The main difference is that both Swedish road links connect and run through reasonably populated areas and that these links have existed for ages - long before the invention of the E route system whereas the significance of the Norwegian rv 3 is newer. Also, there aren't many populated areas along its track. Believe me, I know... Still, this is nitpicking, and...

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Originally Posted by -Pino- View Post
So I can see some rationale here for having an E-route between Göteborg and the E18 at Örebro. Things have just turned a bit farcical with the way it is presented as the main Stockholm to Göteborg route, or a route that has such prime European importance that it deserves the rather odd routing of E20 through Sweden. But that's the crown jewel discussion already mentioned.
...I absolutely agree with this. I wouldn't mind seeing E signs along the Norwegian rv 3 either...
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Old February 11th, 2013, 11:19 PM   #1583
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Originally Posted by Road_UK View Post
I'm glad we don't have this discussion on the UK thread, or we'd be going on and on and on and on and on about the significance of Luton, Milton Keynes, Northampton, Coventry, Leicester etc etc. None of them are control city's.
I think the main difference is that the relative political significance of such territorial markings is way higher in Scandinavia (particularly in Norway, btw) than in the UK. Sensible? Most likely not...
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Old February 12th, 2013, 02:13 AM   #1584
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I've seen that slightly further from the motorway, for example in Stockholm where they point you to an interchange north of the city centre when heading in the direction of Uppsale and to an interchange elsewhere when heading in the direction of Södertalje. I do not recall having seen it at the actual interchange, but then again, my driving experience in Sweden is very much limited.
Yes, that's how they're used far more often, actually. Makes sense.

However, here's one example from an interchange in Stockholm. I guess I need to correct myself: Helsingborg and Sundsvall are not shown here, just E4s and E4n, respectively.

https://maps.google.fi/?ll=59.350346...,320.03,,0,3.2

(The place is u/c as you can see; I'm not sure what it looks like now.)

Last edited by OulaL; February 12th, 2013 at 06:33 AM.
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Old February 12th, 2013, 07:52 AM   #1585
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By the way, could the E4, the E6 and other long-distance routes in the Nordics be served by alternative control cities like NORTH and SOUTH? It might just be an addition if you are caught short on large enough towns to signpost ...
That would be a step towards the British system. Their motorway system is quite London-centric, and the signs are based on compass points and London:

https://maps.google.fi/?ll=51.493177...75.59,,1,-4.41

This is somewhat problematic if the compass points are expressed in local languages, as they usually are. What does tell "E16ø" to non-Scandinavians except nothing?

https://maps.google.fi/maps?q=espoo&...48.78,,1,-6.96

The one-letter designation might even be misleading, like in Finland where E is not east but south.

BTW, I was something confused on my first car trip to Sweden after getting my driving license. It took me while to understand what the islands around the Swedish towns are. The signs showed Enköping Ö, Västerås Ö, etc. (Ö=Island). The compass point based one-letter notation was unused in Finland that time.
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Old February 12th, 2013, 10:43 AM   #1586
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That would be a step towards the British system. Their motorway system is quite London-centric, and the signs are based on compass points and London
I would actually try to avoid replicating the UK because of its focus on London. The signs there are to regions rather than on the compass point itself. So you can drive to the region called "The NORTH" without actually driving in a northerly direction. And when driving London-bound on a route like the M1, you won't see references like "The SOUTH" because that is inconsistent with the London-centred approach. I would very much prefer that the actual cardinal direction in which you are driving is shown. To avoid any form of language barrier, I also think that it would help not to abbreviate those directions but to write them in full.

Speaking about the UK comparison, part of the reason why there is much less political discussion about control city status in the UK might be that the concept of control cities is much less prominent in the UK signage than it is in many other countries. In countries that work with only one control city per stretch of road (such as Sweden, but also Italy) it makes a huge difference to have control city status, very much all-or-nothing and potentially over vast distances. In other words, something that might be worth lobbying for. In countries like the UK, where the number of focal points per direction can easily be three or four, the situation evens out, so probably much less of a political issue.
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Last edited by -Pino-; February 12th, 2013 at 01:19 PM.
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Old February 12th, 2013, 05:29 PM   #1587
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Quote:
Originally Posted by -Pino- View Post
I would actually try to avoid replicating the UK because of its focus on London. The signs there are to regions rather than on the compass point itself. So you can drive to the region called "The NORTH" without actually driving in a northerly direction. And when driving London-bound on a route like the M1, you won't see references like "The SOUTH" because that is inconsistent with the London-centred approach. I would very much prefer that the actual cardinal direction in which you are driving is shown. To avoid any form of language barrier, I also think that it would help not to abbreviate those directions but to write them in full.
You actually do see "the south" on some signs in the UK, but not on the M1 - you tend to see them on the M6 above Preston and in Scotland, and on the A1 (the other main north-south route). Going south along the A1(M) north of Leeds, where the M1 diverges towards Leeds and London those two places appear on the sign for the M1, but the A1 still says "The SOUTH". At Donacaster, there is (or at least was) a sign on the M18 that said "The NORTH, the SOUTH, A1(M)".

I've even seen it on signs around London and Oxford - this one has been removed, but at a certain point on the London inner ring road, there was a sign saying "The South (A3, A23)". Not sure if the one in Oxford is still there, but as you entered Oxford from the M40, the sign for the southern ring road said "The South". There are regular signs for the south-west, but I've never seen one for the south-east.

Quote:
Originally Posted by -Pino- View Post
Speaking about the UK comparison, part of the reason why there is much less political discussion about control city status in the UK might be that the concept of control cities is much less prominent in the UK signage than it is in many other countries. In countries that work with only one control city per stretch of road (such as Sweden, but also Italy) it makes a huge difference to have control city status, very much all-or-nothing and potentially over vast distances. In other words, something that might be worth lobbying for. In countries like the UK, where the number of focal points per direction can easily be three or four, the situation evens out, so probably much less of a political issue.
In the UK there are primary route destinations which you can find marked on most national road atlases. They are usually big towns or cities, or villages with important junctions (like Llangurig in mid-Wales or Crianlarich in Scotland). You sometimes find obscure primary route destinations appearing on signs so as to obscure the real destination of a road while maintaining its status - a classic example being Puckeridge, which provided a convenient destination for the then A14 trunk road and the A10 after the M11 had been built (eventually, the A14 was downgraded and then renumbered). Nowadays, you see the A272 signposted for Petersfield when travelling north along the A23 in Sussex, when it is more likely that people will use that road to get to Horsham and Guildford. However, the authorities want you to use the A264 for Horsham, and the M23, M25 and A3 for Guildford.
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Old February 12th, 2013, 10:19 PM   #1588
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At 300+ primary route destinations in England alone, it is hardly a list worth lobbying for if you compare it with Sweden or other countries with long distance focal points. Being on the British list guarantees your town being signposted from maybe 30 kilometers out. The French category 5 focals, that's one worth fighting for :-)
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Old February 13th, 2013, 03:27 PM   #1589
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Aerial photos of the new E22 Rolsberga-Fogdarp:

1. Connection to the current motorway at the southern end.


2. Junction with national road 17 (exit number 27). The current E22 is seen to the left and the extension of road 17 is seen at the bottom left.


More info: Click here
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Old March 9th, 2013, 09:50 AM   #1590
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The new E22 between Hörby and Linderöd is plagued by problems, such as uneven surface. At exit Hörby north, the speed has been reduced to 50 km/h.

Link to swedish newspaper
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Old March 11th, 2013, 05:43 PM   #1591
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I checked with Google translate and I'm wondering ...
Do they really write such obvious things, like "Tjäle är ett fenomen som uppstår när vattnet i marken fryser." or translated "Frost is a phenomenon that occurs when the water in the ground freezes."
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Old March 11th, 2013, 07:57 PM   #1592
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Quote:
Originally Posted by keber
I checked with Google translate and I'm wondering ...
Do they really write such obvious things, like "Tjäle är ett fenomen som uppstår när vattnet i marken fryser." or translated "Frost is a phenomenon that occurs when the water in the ground freezes."
Tjäle is a technical term that denotes frozen ground; it is more specific than just frost.
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Old March 13th, 2013, 12:54 AM   #1593
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Like "tundra", but not permanent.
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Old March 13th, 2013, 01:30 AM   #1594
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Quote:
Originally Posted by keber View Post
I checked with Google translate and I'm wondering ...
Do they really write such obvious things, like "Tjäle är ett fenomen som uppstår när vattnet i marken fryser." or translated "Frost is a phenomenon that occurs when the water in the ground freezes."
Slightly physical off-topic here, but I guess it won't hurt...

I don't know whether this word has a proper English translation. The use of this word emphasises the fact that freezing of water also affects the soil.

The freezing should be understood as "transformation from liquid to solid". In this sense, only water freezes; the soil particles do not, since they are solid to begin with. (When soil particles transform to liquid, we talk about lava.)

This is important to emphasise in road engineering due to the fact that water expands when it freezes. Even though soil particles themselves don't freeze, they are pushed by expanding water. And the other way, ice shrinks when it melts. If this isn't taken into account in road engineering, melting ice in springtime leaves holes beneath the road surface, severely affecting its safety.

Last edited by OulaL; March 13th, 2013 at 01:37 AM.
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Old March 13th, 2013, 04:29 PM   #1595
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Originally Posted by OulaL View Post
Slightly physical off-topic here, but I guess it won't hurt...

I don't know whether this word has a proper English translation. The use of this word emphasises the fact that freezing of water also affects the soil.

The freezing should be understood as "transformation from liquid to solid". In this sense, only water freezes; the soil particles do not, since they are solid to begin with. (When soil particles transform to liquid, we talk about lava.)

This is important to emphasise in road engineering due to the fact that water expands when it freezes. Even though soil particles themselves don't freeze, they are pushed by expanding water. And the other way, ice shrinks when it melts. If this isn't taken into account in road engineering, melting ice in springtime leaves holes beneath the road surface, severely affecting its safety.
At least a term "soil frost" can be seen in the literature.

The soil frost is rather a complex phenomena. During the winter, the freezing layers get more water from the layers beneath them through the capillary attraction. That water often freezes making horizontal layers, so called ice lenses. The expanding ice is strong enough to move even heavy stones.

The soil types are different in this context. Materials like sand, of course, freeze but they do not draw up water, and thus they do not create soil frost. The more the soil draws up water, the bigger the problems are.

The problems caused by the soil frost are worst during the spring: The topmost layers of the road start melting but the ice layers beneath prevent the water to be absorbed in the lower layers. Therefore, the top layers get wet, and they turn much less solid. Non-paved gravel roads may be in very bad condition in April-May, and weight restrictions for traffic may be introduced.

In the arctic areas, the road construction is expensive because of fighting the soil frost. It not possible to prevent the road base from freezing. Instead, the impact of the capillary attraction is reduced by building the whole road on top of an isolation layer keeping the water away. In addition, there are drains to move the water away from the base structures.
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Old March 16th, 2013, 02:49 AM   #1596
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Today, as a pure long-distance network road, the rv 3 is obviously the better option, but the E6 is still for the most part considerably busier and a more important link to a larger part of the country.
I don't want to repeat this old tedious discussion, particularly not in our neighbor's thread, but I certainly disagree here. Although parts of the section of E6 that runs in parallel with RV 3 have some local traffic, the E6 here connects a significantly smaller and in steadily decreasing part of the country in terms of population than RV 3. In any case, the reason that Trondheim-Oslo is signposted along E6 is clearly a result of local political interest and not reason, with the locals along the E6 and connected communities both wanting the (imagined?) increased tourist traffic, and wanting to call the E6 the main road of Norway as an argument for attracting road funding.

Sorry for this off-topic post.
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Old March 16th, 2013, 02:51 AM   #1597
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MattiG View Post
At least a term "soil frost" can be seen in the literature.

The soil frost is rather a complex phenomena. During the winter, the freezing layers get more water from the layers beneath them through the capillary attraction. That water often freezes making horizontal layers, so called ice lenses. The expanding ice is strong enough to move even heavy stones.

The soil types are different in this context. Materials like sand, of course, freeze but they do not draw up water, and thus they do not create soil frost. The more the soil draws up water, the bigger the problems are.

The problems caused by the soil frost are worst during the spring: The topmost layers of the road start melting but the ice layers beneath prevent the water to be absorbed in the lower layers. Therefore, the top layers get wet, and they turn much less solid. Non-paved gravel roads may be in very bad condition in April-May, and weight restrictions for traffic may be introduced.

In the arctic areas, the road construction is expensive because of fighting the soil frost. It not possible to prevent the road base from freezing. Instead, the impact of the capillary attraction is reduced by building the whole road on top of an isolation layer keeping the water away. In addition, there are drains to move the water away from the base structures.
This is of course part of the road construction ABC in the Nordics, nevertheless Norwegian manages to mess this up after decades of planning....
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Old March 16th, 2013, 06:13 PM   #1598
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This is of course part of the road construction ABC in the Nordics, nevertheless Norwegian manages to mess this up after decades of planning....
You might some incident in your mind?
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Old March 17th, 2013, 04:15 AM   #1599
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He's probably talking about E18 from E6 to Sweden, where two parcels have been dug up, first one for having big rocks as fundaments, second for using non-permeable gravel.

Not to say the Swedes have been much better, though. E6 through Båhuslen is a disaster.
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Old March 22nd, 2013, 12:09 AM   #1600
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Trafikverket will start signing the new riksväg 15 now in March. They estimate all signage will have been put up sometime in May.

The route in Google Maps.

More info (in Swedish)
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