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Old October 21st, 2013, 07:21 PM   #1781
Shifty2k5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by riiga View Post
Road will have to be closed I assume if it's a severe one.
This also applies to motorways. 2+1 is sufficient for a road with this AADT.
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Old October 22nd, 2013, 12:02 AM   #1782
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Quote:
Originally Posted by riiga View Post
Road will have to be closed I assume if it's a severe one.
Actually road is closed even if just a truck trailer breaks down right there.
I don't know for you but personally I didn't feel very comfortable on Sweden 2+1 sections.
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Old October 22nd, 2013, 10:27 AM   #1783
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Actually road is closed even if just a truck trailer breaks down right there. I don't know for you but personally I didn't feel very comfortable on Sweden 2+1 sections.
Why not? Did you experience any closed sections of 2+1 road during your visit? Imagine if all 2+1 roads were conventional 1x1 country roads instead, and a truck breaks down there, in the middle of the road. Not only would traffic have to pass by driving into opposite traffic which is extremely dangerous, drivers coming from the other direction also risk hitting oncoming traffic since people tend to loose focus when they drive past an accident.

Shoulders are overrated and a thing of the past. Modern cars don't break down like cars used to. Shoulders also induce unecessary stopping since people tend to just pull over when they need to piss, smoke, sleep, or make/answer a telephone call. All this is dangerous and causes lots of accidents. Shoulders should only be built on motorways that are heavily trafficated or with a high truck share.

Also, 2+1 roads are the reason why Sweden is one of the safest countries in the world to drive in.
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Old October 22nd, 2013, 10:38 AM   #1784
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I haven't driven on Swedish 2+1 roads personally but I've driven on 1x2 roads with wide shoulders and those look extremely unsafe to me, at least when the traffic density is high. I've also driven (as a passenger) on Finnish 2+1 roads that don't have a barrier and those also seem less safe than the Swedish 2+1 roads (that have a central barrier). Estonia is also considering building 2+1 roads and if we do, we will follow the Swedish model.
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Old October 22nd, 2013, 11:04 AM   #1785
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shifty2k5 View Post
Why not? Did you experience any closed sections of 2+1 road during your visit? Imagine if all 2+1 roads were conventional 1x1 country roads instead, and a truck breaks down there, in the middle of the road. Not only would traffic have to pass by driving into opposite traffic which is extremely dangerous, drivers coming from the other direction also risk hitting oncoming traffic since people tend to loose focus when they drive past an accident.
Mhm ...

Imagine that there would be people in that burning vehicle.
And passing of stranded vehicles is overall not considered extremely dangerous, at least not in other countries.

Quote:
Shoulders are overrated and a thing of the past. Modern cars don't break down like cars used to. Shoulders also induce unecessary stopping since people tend to just pull over when they need to piss, smoke, sleep, or make/answer a telephone call. All this is dangerous and causes lots of accidents. Shoulders should only be built on motorways that are heavily trafficated or with a high truck share.
You never drove much over Europe, did you? You wouldn't believe how many vehicles you see broken down on roads. In Italy shoulders are now mandatory even in motorway tunnels.

Quote:
Also, 2+1 roads are the reason why Sweden is one of the safest countries in the world to drive in.
I'm sure the reason is elsewhere like in driving culture, not 2+1 roads.
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Old October 22nd, 2013, 02:39 PM   #1786
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Originally Posted by keber View Post
You never drove much over Europe, did you? You wouldn't believe how many vehicles you see broken down on roads. In Italy shoulders are now mandatory even in motorway tunnels.
I guess I am seeing cars or trucks on German Autobahn shoulders on average in intervals of about 50km.
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Old October 22nd, 2013, 03:16 PM   #1787
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I guess I am seeing cars or trucks on German Autobahn shoulders on average in intervals of about 50km.
And how many of those stopped vehicles are actual emergencies? And how many are just people breaking the law?

Keber - I'm on my phone at work, but I'll respond to your post when I get home.
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Old October 22nd, 2013, 03:20 PM   #1788
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And how many of those stopped vehicles are actual emergencies? And how many are just people breaking the law?
I only count those I am recognizing an emergency.
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Old October 22nd, 2013, 03:52 PM   #1789
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Even though cars are much more reliable than before, a flat tire can happen anytime. In those cases it's highly unsafe if shoulders are missing and you have to stop in traffic.

The amount of incidents is much higher than one would guess from single trips. For example the traffic control center that monitors traffic on the motorways around Amsterdam records tens of thousands of incidents per year, each of which could use the shoulder.
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Old October 22nd, 2013, 03:54 PM   #1790
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I must agree with MichiH, though. I've seen much more cars in the shoulders of German Autobahns than in Italian Autostrade. This has always been puzzling to me.
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Old October 22nd, 2013, 04:46 PM   #1791
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisZwolle View Post
Even though cars are much more reliable than before, a flat tire can happen anytime. In those cases it's highly unsafe if shoulders are missing and you have to stop in traffic.
I was always wondering about so much flat tires... Well, it also happened to me last week. It was my first time (after 16 years of driving) and it happened on an Autobahn. There was only a very loud sound but the vehicle performance was still as usual thus I decided to drive to the next parking area and had not to stop on the hard shoulder. It was the left rear tire...
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Old October 22nd, 2013, 05:18 PM   #1792
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There is another thing about flat tires - I noticed way too many tire leftovers on Sweden motorways - actually there was a truck tire leftover on average every few km on E4/E20 between Stockholm and Malmö. Seems that motorway services don't clean often Swedish motorways.
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Old October 22nd, 2013, 05:36 PM   #1793
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Quote:
Originally Posted by keber View Post
Actually road is closed even if just a truck trailer breaks down right there.
I don't know for you but personally I didn't feel very comfortable on Sweden 2+1 sections.
You may not have felt very comfortable, but that's based on conjecture and emotions and not facts. The fact is that divided 2+1 (and 1+1) roads are much safer than undevided ones.

It's true that if the road is blocked, accidents can be more difficult to reach by emergency vehicles, but this is outweighed by the fact that the risk of head-on collisions is greatly reduced.
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Old October 22nd, 2013, 06:10 PM   #1794
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisZwolle View Post
Even though cars are much more reliable than before, a flat tire can happen anytime. In those cases it's highly unsafe if shoulders are missing and you have to stop in traffic.

The amount of incidents is much higher than one would guess from single trips. For example the traffic control center that monitors traffic on the motorways around Amsterdam records tens of thousands of incidents per year, each of which could use the shoulder.
In Sweden new roads with AADT over 10.000 vehicles are designed as motorways. With the kind of traffic flow we are used to over here, these motorways are by no means substandard. Even if they wouldn´t qualify as motorways on the Continent, where motorways are usually planned on stretches with AADT above 20.000. Most sections in Sweden with high traffic flow and/or high truck share have wide cross-sections with shoulders, apart from the low-budget widening of motorways in the Gothenburg and Stockholm areas (which I don´t like). Back in the nineties standard width in Sweden used to be 26,5m, each carriageway 11,25m + 4m median. Later on narrower sections were tested, 18m width without shoulders and a median narrowed to 2,5m, later sectons were built with shoulders but with an even narrower median. When they started to set back the standards I was strictly against this, but considering the low traffic flows and low velocities and after driving them, I now find these new stretches OK. A benefit is that you can build more high-quality roads with the same money. Also traffic safety is not only about cross-section, the surroundings of the road should be designed in a way that lets you survive if you happen to slip off the road. In Sweden a lot of emphasis is put on this, most slopes are driveable. In continental Europe you are quite likely to roll over, hit a tree or a rock -and die.
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Old October 22nd, 2013, 11:30 PM   #1795
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It should be quite obvious to anyone that:
  1. Vehicles (still) break down
  2. Stopping your vehicle in a driving lane on a road with traffic at high speed (or any road for that matter) is very dangerous

As someone who's been limping along and stopped on a shoulder with enough room to pull over safely and a barely wide enough shoulder with guardrails right next to it, I can say that the latter was a much less joyful experience. I can only imagine what it would be like to have a breakdown where there's no shoulder and no way to get out of the driving lane.

I understand that hard shoulders are expensive, and that putting them on every road isn't feasible. But what I don't understand is these roads with guardrails right next to the driving lanes that make it physically impossible to pull over. If they just moved the guardrails a couple of meters outside, there would be enough room to safely pull over in an emergency.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nils de Gothia View Post
Also traffic safety is not only about cross-section, the surroundings of the road should be designed in a way that lets you survive if you happen to slip off the road. In Sweden a lot of emphasis is put on this, most slopes are driveable. In continental Europe you are quite likely to roll over, hit a tree or a rock -and die.
This sounds like conjecture to me.
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Old October 23rd, 2013, 12:11 AM   #1796
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For 2+1 roads stopping points are provided every 300 meter for one lane sections and every 600 meter for two lane sections.
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I want to see some construction!
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Old October 23rd, 2013, 12:38 AM   #1797
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Originally Posted by Ingenioren View Post
For 2+1 roads stopping points are provided every 300 meter for one lane sections and every 600 meter for two lane sections.
Those numbers on A4 near Ljungby were few times higher - more like between 1500 - 2000 m. It is being converted into real motorway though.

However i find even more dangerous situation when they converted E4 between Södertä and Botkyrka from 2+2 to 3+3. Stooping points are not provided and I've encountered a truck trailer with a blown tire (looks like those appear often in Sweden). Truck had to be signaled from behind with two service vehicles as it appears that overhead electronic signage marking open or closed lanes and speed limits is not enough for safety. In dense (or even light) traffic) I don't see that safe.
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Old October 23rd, 2013, 05:20 PM   #1798
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Originally Posted by keber View Post
Those numbers on A4 near Ljungby were few times higher - more like between 1500 - 2000 m. It is being converted into real motorway though.

However i find even more dangerous situation when they converted E4 between Södertä and Botkyrka from 2+2 to 3+3. Stooping points are not provided and I've encountered a truck trailer with a blown tire (looks like those appear often in Sweden). Truck had to be signaled from behind with two service vehicles as it appears that overhead electronic signage marking open or closed lanes and speed limits is not enough for safety. In dense (or even light) traffic) I don't see that safe.
The widened section between Södertälje and Hallunda definitely has stopping points. They're even signed, which is quite unusual. The most part of the stretch also has a shoulder wide enough to fit a car.

My own opinion is also that blown tires are less comon in Sweden, since there are fewer foreign trucks compared to continental Europe. Trucks from Eastern Europe are often in bad shape and more prone to stops and malfunctions.
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Old October 23rd, 2013, 10:49 PM   #1799
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>>> The widened section between Södertälje and Hallunda definitely has stopping points. They're even signed, which is quite unusual. The most part of the stretch also has a shoulder wide enough to fit a car.
Southbound yes but northbound not.

Maybe there are less blown tires in Sweden than in rest of Europe but surely they are not cleaned often. When I was there in August density of tire remnants on E4 was approximately the same as on busiest German autobahns and much higher than on Italian, Austrian or Slovenian motorways, also close to Stockholm where you would expect more maintenance crews patrolling and cleaning roads.

Overall Sweden motorways are not bad but maintenance appears to be not their strong point as it is not road visibility in the night as side markers and white lanes are barely reflective. Maybe you are used to that but for me it was pretty annoying.

Last edited by keber; October 23rd, 2013 at 10:58 PM.
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Old October 23rd, 2013, 11:38 PM   #1800
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Quote:
Originally Posted by keber View Post
>>> The widened section between Södertälje and Hallunda definitely has stopping points. They're even signed, which is quite unusual. The most part of the stretch also has a shoulder wide enough to fit a car.
Southbound yes but northbound not.

Maybe there are less blown tires in Sweden than in rest of Europe but surely they are not cleaned often. When I was there in August density of tire remnants on E4 was approximately the same as on busiest German autobahns and much higher than on Italian, Austrian or Slovenian motorways, also close to Stockholm where you would expect more maintenance crews patrolling and cleaning roads.

Overall Sweden motorways are not bad but maintenance appears to be not their strong point as it is not road visibility in the night as side markers and white lanes are barely reflective. Maybe you are used to that but for me it was pretty annoying.
In Europe you have very intense traffic, many foreign drivers, high volume, going trough towns, the roads in most of Sweden are more like the American long empty cruise style highways, I doubt we'll ever maintain them like you guys do.
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