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Old October 19th, 2007, 08:32 PM   #61
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I don't even know why non-Muslims would want to visit Makkah or Medinah. It's no tourist spot. Ironically, a Non-Saudi Muslim coming in during Hajj is not allowed to visit the rest of Saudi Arabia, AFAIK.

As for access for Muslims to non-Muslim metro areas.
It was never our idea and we don't have the power to change the rules. Explain all this to the Saudis.
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Old October 19th, 2007, 08:48 PM   #62
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It is 2007 and people still believe in God. The world is a very sad place. Religon should be abolished or kept in the closet before the world gets destroyed by some holy war.
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Old October 19th, 2007, 09:56 PM   #63
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Quote:
Originally Posted by antishock8 View Post
The racism charge is in relation to Jewish people.
This might be getting off topic here, but I need to respond to this. Jewish people are not a cultural group but rather a religious group. You can have black Jews, etcetera. The term racism cannot apply.
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Old October 19th, 2007, 10:00 PM   #64
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Originally Posted by philadweller View Post
It is 2007 and people still believe in God. The world is a very sad place. Religon should be abolished or kept in the closet before the world gets destroyed by some holy war.
Hey man, you live the most powerful theocracy in the world! Just a pinch of sarcasm, yes.

The interesting thing is, way back when, politics was using religion (think specifically of when the roman empire 'embraced' Christianity, while ensuring only compatible gospels made it to publication). Now it is the opposite. Religion is using politics. It is the case in the USA and well as in Saudi. And while the peoples of these two lands may not agree, they are quite alike!
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Old October 20th, 2007, 02:56 AM   #65
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Just want to say my opinion on all of this, even though I don't know much about it.

What bothers me most about the abraj al bait is not the scale. IMO, an important cultural, or iconic building doesn't any less just because it has a tower next to it, the whole thing about preserving postcard views and stuff like that is bullshit to me. Of course it's a different story when you have an entire area built in a certain style (like Venice for example) but I don't think it really matters for single buildings.

My big problem (and I didn't know this until fairly recently) is how they're destroying various landmarks, or places of cultural importance to make way for these. Sure demolishing some delapitated houses is OK but a castle?

Also with all these towers getting built where is the infrastructure to cope with the increased density?


People still haven't answered this question:
Why the hell aren't they building a metro?
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Old October 20th, 2007, 05:07 AM   #66
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this is horrible its like building the ESB next to rome cathedrals... sorry for misspell
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Old October 20th, 2007, 08:03 PM   #67
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TenRot View Post
Ironically, a Non-Saudi Muslim coming in during Hajj is not allowed to visit the rest of Saudi Arabia, AFAIK.
That is a VERY important point, and is extremely relevant to the discussion of these new towers. While Islam attempts to put all people at a level playing field, and that is why all wear the same thing during hajj and all are buried the same way upon death, the rich Saudis want to maintain distinguishable luxury and stay separate from the masses.

The towers segregate by way of economic inaccessibility for a vast majority. While everyone is supposed to pray together, these towers have their own 'higher than thou' prayer space - overlooking the 'groundlings' per say. This is also precisely the reason they don't allow the Muslim visitors to travel outside of Mecca, when they come to visit for the Hajj.

BTW - the same thing is played out in everyday life, where foreign workers, be they Muslim or otherwise, are abused and kept like slaves.
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Old October 22nd, 2007, 10:40 PM   #68
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Quote:
Originally Posted by walli View Post
This might be getting off topic here, but I need to respond to this. Jewish people are not a cultural group but rather a religious group. You can have black Jews, etcetera. The term racism cannot apply.
Not to niggle the point, but Jews are cultural, genotypical, and have their own haplogroup. It's safe to designate them as a race. Your desire to delegitimize that point is troubling.

To address the issue as to why a non-Muslim would WANT to visit Mecca, it's for the same reason a non-Hindu would want to visit the Ganges river, or a non-Mormon (and American sub-Christian sect) would want to vist Salt Lake City, UT: To see what a unique religious enterprise brings forth culturally and architecturally at a specific geographical location. It's not unusual to be curious about other peoples and the places they live. To NOT be curious would be a shame in all reality.

In any case, back to the point, the building seems completely out of place and out of sorts within the specific religious and cultural context of Mecca and Islam. I wonder if there was any sort of consortium that included a wide-range of devout Muslims that could have provided insight to the design and location of the building?
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Old October 23rd, 2007, 12:57 AM   #69
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Quote:
Originally Posted by antishock8 View Post
Not to niggle the point, but Jews are cultural, genotypical, and have their own haplogroup. It's safe to designate them as a race. Your desire to delegitimize that point is troubling.
No - people following particular religious may have different cultural backgrounds and races. I'm perplexed at why this is troubling for you to understand.

Before the Hebrew Bible was revealed, there were people in those lands with a particular race. Not all of them became Jewish - so even from the debatable standpoint that it was 'only revealed to the people of that land' one cannot say a particular race is synonymous with Judaism. Your comments also make me consider how orthodox Jews consider the African Jews, which number in the many thousands.

We may have to agree to not agree on this one. I honestly don't have any bad intent with my comments, and I hope you understand that. Your 'quick to the trigger' comment suggesting my words were troubling, are actually troubling in and of themselves!

Let's move past this part - I have a ton of Jewish friends, and we all enjoy open, frank and truth based debate - but there is a time and place. We leave the 'hate card' aspects to the politicians and lawyers.

Last edited by walli; October 23rd, 2007 at 01:06 AM.
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Old October 23rd, 2007, 01:04 AM   #70
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Quote:
Originally Posted by antishock8 View Post
In any case, back to the point, the building seems completely out of place and out of sorts within the specific religious and cultural context of Mecca and Islam. I wonder if there was any sort of consortium that included a wide-range of devout Muslims that could have provided insight to the design and location of the building?
I wish there was a wide-range of muslims that were consulted, but it didn't happen. It would be very difficult for the Saudi's to coordinate such an effort given that their particular interpretation says that there are no other legitimate Muslim groups. We can't lose sight of this sad reality. First and foremost, they are against other traditions, so they would have had major internal controversy if they went beyond speaking to only people of their own tradition. It is absolutely ironic that these structures are being build by the Bin Ladin family. Makes me sick!

To provide a paradigm for what I'm suggesting, have a listen to the following lecture by Eboo Patel at
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W5Go6mnBK5Y

He's speaking at the New America Foundation I think, and he is very interesting to listen to.
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Old October 23rd, 2007, 01:24 AM   #71
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Quote:
Originally Posted by antishock8 View Post
Not to niggle the point, but Jews are cultural, genotypical, and have their own haplogroup. It's safe to designate them as a race. Your desire to delegitimize that point is troubling.
I think you have Ashkenazi jews in mind. There are also Sephardic jews, ethiopian jews etc.
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Old October 23rd, 2007, 07:17 AM   #72
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Quote:
Originally Posted by antishock8 View Post
To address the issue as to why a non-Muslim would WANT to visit Mecca, it's for the same reason a non-Hindu would want to visit the Ganges river, or a non-Mormon (and American sub-Christian sect) would want to vist Salt Lake City, UT: To see what a unique religious enterprise brings forth culturally and architecturally at a specific geographical location. It's not unusual to be curious about other peoples and the places they live. To NOT be curious would be a shame in all reality.
And non-Mormons can visit Salt Lake City, as well as all other cities in Utah, at will, just like anybody can visit any city in the USA. The ONLY places that are closed to non-Mormons are their temples (IDs are checked at the door). In fact, their local meeting ('Stake') houses are also fully open to non-Mormons.

Mike
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Old October 23rd, 2007, 11:31 AM   #73
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I created this thread for a purpose, it seems it's not being followed. What does allowing only muslims into Mecca have to do with these buildings?
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Old October 24th, 2007, 10:25 AM   #74
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I created this thread for a purpose, it seems it's not being followed. What does allowing only muslims into Mecca have to do with these buildings?
The fact that we can never see the buildings or the town ot even drive on the roads to town is very relevant. Keeping groups out of entire cities is extremely discriminatory whether you can it racism or not. I can understand keeping a single temple of limits because of holyness, but not a whole city, especially one like Medina which had a large Jewish population before Muhammed killed/expelled/forcibly converted them all.
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Old October 24th, 2007, 05:35 PM   #75
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Quote:
Originally Posted by svs View Post
The fact that we can never see the buildings or the town ot even drive on the roads to town is very relevant. Keeping groups out of entire cities is extremely discriminatory whether you can it racism or not. I can understand keeping a single temple of limits because of holyness, but not a whole city, especially one like Medina which had a large Jewish population before Muhammed killed/expelled/forcibly converted them all.
Muhammed killed the jews? How can a religion be based on a killer?
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Old October 24th, 2007, 05:49 PM   #76
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Quote:
Originally Posted by svs View Post
The fact that we can never see the buildings or the town ot even drive on the roads to town is very relevant. Keeping groups out of entire cities is extremely discriminatory whether you can it racism or not. I can understand keeping a single temple of limits because of holyness, but not a whole city, especially one like Medina which had a large Jewish population before Muhammed killed/expelled/forcibly converted them all.
please not trying to fight but i am a muslim and have studyed this before he muhammed (peace be upon him صلى الله عليه وسلم) kicked the jews out and they moved to the largest jew populated are whish is now israel ! so he didtnt really kill anybody !
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Old October 24th, 2007, 06:17 PM   #77
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Quote:
Originally Posted by svs View Post
The fact that we can never see the buildings or the town ot even drive on the roads to town is very relevant. Keeping groups out of entire cities is extremely discriminatory whether you can it racism or not. I can understand keeping a single temple of limits because of holyness, but not a whole city, especially one like Medina which had a large Jewish population before Muhammed killed/expelled/forcibly converted them all.
Maybe it is discriminatory but it's still offtopic.

It seems a lot of you people are unable to stick to what the thread is originally about.
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Old October 24th, 2007, 06:32 PM   #78
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Quote:
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Muhammed killed the jews? How can a religion be based on a killer?
Moses killed an Egyptian slave-driver.
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Old October 24th, 2007, 06:34 PM   #79
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Moses killed an Egyptian slave-driver.
Bastard!
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Old October 24th, 2007, 06:37 PM   #80
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Quote:
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Maybe it is discriminatory but it's still offtopic.

It seems a lot of you people are unable to stick to what the thread is originally about.
No, it's one of the very reasons why we find the project so offensive. The project flagrantly discriminates against the poor and unwashed, but it would appear that the religion (or the head religious leaders) as a whole doesn't have a problem with discriminating amongst its own people and others.
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