daily menu » rate the banner | guess the city | one on oneforums map | privacy policy | DMCA | news magazine | posting guidelines

Go Back   SkyscraperCity > World Forums > Architecture

Architecture news and discussions on all buildings types and urban spaces
» Classic Architecture | European Classic Architecture and Landscapes | Public Space | Shopping Architecture | Design & Lifestyle | Urban Renewal and Redevelopment



Global Announcement

As a general reminder, please respect others and respect copyrights. Go here to familiarize yourself with our posting policy.


Reply

 
Thread Tools
Old October 26th, 2007, 02:08 AM   #41
-Corey-
Je suis tout à vous
 
-Corey-'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Seattle
Posts: 16,221
Likes (Received): 5222

The birthplace is chicago, but NY prefected it
__________________

๏̯͡๏๏̯͡๏
-Corey- no está en línea   Reply With Quote

Sponsored Links
Old October 26th, 2007, 04:46 AM   #42
charmedone
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 414
Likes (Received): 86

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gary_A_Hill View Post
Yes. The structural innovation is what matters, not the height. Also, Chicago was the home of Louis Sullivan, who first gave expression to the tall building when other architects were resisting it with designs which looked like a stack of several short buildings.
yes but hight is also a key thing in a skyscraper with out hight its just outher building in the city
charmedone está en línea ahora   Reply With Quote
Old August 8th, 2012, 08:05 PM   #43
QuantumX
One Brickell CityCentre
 
QuantumX's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Miami
Posts: 13,157
Likes (Received): 19048

The enginering techology that made the skyscraper possible was born in Chicago after the Great Chicago Fire destroyed much of downtown in 1871. That is why Chicago is considered the birthplace of the skyscraper. The idea that we could go taller with a steel frame as was mentioned earlier came out of Chicago and that was the key to creating very tall buildings. This is a historical fact and it doesn't really matter what was built when in what city. Chicago architects came up with the idea.
__________________
"I'm going to bet you that when we're done --- I don't know when that will be --- historians will identify this as the most significant and rapid transformation of an American city.'' Former Miami City Commissioner Johnny Winton 05/22/2005

My photo threads:




QuantumX no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old August 9th, 2012, 01:32 AM   #44
Hudson11
Stuck on the Cross Bronx
 
Hudson11's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: The Empire State
Posts: 9,525
Likes (Received): 22554

Chicago started it but New York is where building tall really took off.
Hudson11 está en línea ahora   Reply With Quote
Old August 9th, 2012, 11:07 PM   #45
DFDalton
Banished from SSP
 
DFDalton's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Suburban Chicago
Posts: 487
Likes (Received): 127

I went to a skyscraper museum near Battery Park in New York a few years back. Here was displayed the entire history of skyscraper development. According to this museum, New York solely invented and led the way in developing the skyscraper. Period. When I asked a docent about it he said, "Whatsa Chicago? Neva hoid of it."
DFDalton no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old August 10th, 2012, 01:04 AM   #46
CNB30
centralnatbankbuildingrva
 
CNB30's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: New York (Brooklyn)/Richmond/Philadelphia
Posts: 2,575
Likes (Received): 804

New York Invented the tall office building, while Chicago pioneered in the modern technology to build it.
CNB30 no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old August 10th, 2012, 01:04 AM   #47
CNB30
centralnatbankbuildingrva
 
CNB30's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: New York (Brooklyn)/Richmond/Philadelphia
Posts: 2,575
Likes (Received): 804

Quote:
Originally Posted by DFDalton View Post
I went to a skyscraper museum near Battery Park in New York a few years back. Here was displayed the entire history of skyscraper development. According to this museum, New York solely invented and led the way in developing the skyscraper. Period. When I asked a docent about it he said, "Whatsa Chicago? Neva hoid of it."
Thats a joke, right
CNB30 no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old August 10th, 2012, 05:11 AM   #48
DFDalton
Banished from SSP
 
DFDalton's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Suburban Chicago
Posts: 487
Likes (Received): 127

Quote:
Originally Posted by CNB30 View Post
Thats a joke, right
A slight exageration. But the museum really exists.

My complaint is that the museum in question presents a (perhaps understandable given the location) very New York-centric view of skyscraper history. I mean, if they are going to call it a "Skyscraper Museum" they should take a more universal approach toward the subject, else more accurately call it a "New York Skyscraper Museum".

There was no mention of any rivalry or co-development involving the NYC and Chicago (because as all New Yorkers know, New York is the most impoitant city in the universe and to mention any other city would just be cluttering up the narrative with trivialities). As I remember, the sole mention of Chicago's contribution came in the form of a large blow-up of a 1970s Chicago Tribune front page showing the topping out (or maybe it was just the announcement of the design being world's tallest) of the Sears Tower. The problem was, the Sears Tower story was secondary to a blazing headline of yet another story of Chicago corruption. I can't remember exactly what the headline was, but it portrayed Chicago in a bad light unnecessarily. Why use this unflattering front page in a skyscraper museum? It seemed gratuitous and petty, especially in the context of the total snub elsewhere.

This is the website of the museum:

http://www.skyscraper.org/home.htm

It is apparently still in operation. Whether the content and viewpoint has been improved is something I wouldn't know. (Maybe someone who has been there recently can advise on this.) I was there in maybe 2005 or 2006. The website does show they are exhibiting models of buildings in other cities. But I still wouldn't recommend this place when NYC has so many better museums and attractions to spend your money on.

Last edited by DFDalton; August 10th, 2012 at 05:32 AM.
DFDalton no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old August 10th, 2012, 11:02 PM   #49
CNB30
centralnatbankbuildingrva
 
CNB30's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: New York (Brooklyn)/Richmond/Philadelphia
Posts: 2,575
Likes (Received): 804

Quote:
Originally Posted by DFDalton View Post
A slight exageration. But the museum really exists.

My complaint is that the museum in question presents a (perhaps understandable given the location) very New York-centric view of skyscraper history. I mean, if they are going to call it a "Skyscraper Museum" they should take a more universal approach toward the subject, else more accurately call it a "New York Skyscraper Museum".

There was no mention of any rivalry or co-development involving the NYC and Chicago (because as all New Yorkers know, New York is the most impoitant city in the universe and to mention any other city would just be cluttering up the narrative with trivialities). As I remember, the sole mention of Chicago's contribution came in the form of a large blow-up of a 1970s Chicago Tribune front page showing the topping out (or maybe it was just the announcement of the design being world's tallest) of the Sears Tower. The problem was, the Sears Tower story was secondary to a blazing headline of yet another story of Chicago corruption. I can't remember exactly what the headline was, but it portrayed Chicago in a bad light unnecessarily. Why use this unflattering front page in a skyscraper museum? It seemed gratuitous and petty, especially in the context of the total snub elsewhere.

This is the website of the museum:

http://www.skyscraper.org/home.htm

It is apparently still in operation. Whether the content and viewpoint has been improved is something I wouldn't know. (Maybe someone who has been there recently can advise on this.) I was there in maybe 2005 or 2006. The website does show they are exhibiting models of buildings in other cities. But I still wouldn't recommend this place when NYC has so many better museums and attractions to spend your money on.
I've been there, and they seemed to have their facts straight. I even recall seeing some stuff from Chicago.
CNB30 no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old August 11th, 2012, 06:25 PM   #50
DFDalton
Banished from SSP
 
DFDalton's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Suburban Chicago
Posts: 487
Likes (Received): 127

Quote:
Originally Posted by CNB30 View Post
I've been there, and they seemed to have their facts straight. I even recall seeing some stuff from Chicago.
Thanks. As I said, the website seems to suggest they've improved the content and made it more all-encompassing than it had been when I saw it in 2005. I am sure they received complaints about the "homerism" from visitors.
DFDalton no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old August 12th, 2012, 08:27 PM   #51
Core Rising
Ampersands & What
 
Core Rising's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: London
Posts: 7,072

Oriel Chambers in Liverpool is the world's first metal framed glass curtain walled building, beating New York and Chicago to the title. It might not be the first skyscraper, but it was the first building with the ingredients for skyscraper construction. Built in 1864. I wouldn't go so far as to say it was the birthplace of the skyscraper, but it was where the skyscraper foetus formed so to speak.
Core Rising no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old August 12th, 2012, 09:37 PM   #52
CNB30
centralnatbankbuildingrva
 
CNB30's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: New York (Brooklyn)/Richmond/Philadelphia
Posts: 2,575
Likes (Received): 804

Quote:
Originally Posted by Core Rising View Post
Oriel Chambers in Liverpool is the world's first metal framed glass curtain walled building, beating New York and Chicago to the title. It might not be the first skyscraper, but it was the first building with the ingredients for skyscraper construction. Built in 1864. I wouldn't go so far as to say it was the birthplace of the skyscraper, but it was where the skyscraper foetus formed so to speak.
There Was cast Iron following the same principle in NY?C before 1864
CNB30 no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old August 13th, 2012, 08:49 AM   #53
isaidso
the new republic
 
isaidso's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: The United Provinces of America
Posts: 29,635
Likes (Received): 10788

Neither!

Skyscrapers were a result of technological advancement and no one city can be credited with it. Chicago and New York were simply the largest cities of the day that were rapidly expanding so this is where the need to go taller was most prevalent. People simply borrowed available technology to build taller. Similar efforts occurred in Melbourne, Toronto, Philadelphia, Sydney, Montreal, Buenos Aires, Liverpool, etc.

Assigning credit to one of these 2 cities is like saying that Detroit is the birthplace of the automobile because the first big factories happened to be built there. Utter nonsense. If Chicago and New York were stagnating in the 1870s and 1880s and Melbourne had 3 million people and booming, the tallest early buildings would have been built there instead.

The skyscraper is a product of advancements in building techniques in the western world. Credit rests with the iron/steel industries, civil engineers, and innovators in the Western world back in the 1870s/1880s.
__________________
World's 1st Baseball Game: June 4th, 1838, Beachville, Ontario, Canada
North America's Oldest Pro Football Teams: Toronto Argonauts (1873) and Hamilton Tiger Cats (1869)

I started my first photo thread documenting a recent trip to Halifax, Nova Scotia. Have a peek: http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=724898

Last edited by isaidso; August 13th, 2012 at 08:59 AM.
isaidso no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old August 13th, 2012, 10:09 AM   #54
Dean
Registered User
 
Dean's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Melbourne
Posts: 2,294
Likes (Received): 911

Because of the gold rush Melbourne was considered the most important and richest city in the British empire outside of London in late 1800's.

As a result many fabulous buildings were commissioned and many still stand today.

The oldest surviving 'skyscraper' of the time is the Queen Anne inspired Lombard Building in Melbourne, the first to have an elevator installed rather than being a walk up. Built 1886-87.

image hosted on flickr


The tallest at the time was the incredible 'APA - The Australian Building'. Another Queen Anne masterpiece from 1889. Sadly demolished in 1980. One of the greatest acts of civil vandalism in Melbourne's history.


Last edited by Dean; August 13th, 2012 at 10:14 AM.
Dean no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old September 9th, 2012, 10:24 PM   #55
Portobello Red
____________
 
Portobello Red's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Bootle / Ladbroke Grove
Posts: 14,148
Likes (Received): 14376

Quote:
Originally Posted by Core Rising View Post
Oriel Chambers in Liverpool is the world's first metal framed glass curtain walled building, beating New York and Chicago to the title. It might not be the first skyscraper, but it was the first building with the ingredients for skyscraper construction. Built in 1864. I wouldn't go so far as to say it was the birthplace of the skyscraper, but it was where the skyscraper foetus formed so to speak.
Oriel Chambers (1864) - 14 Water Street - Liverpool

Oriel Chambers is the world's first metal framed glass curtain walled building. Designed by architect Peter Ellis and built in 1864, it comprises 43,000 sq ft (4,000 m2) set over five floors.[1] A Grade 1 Listed Building, it is located on Water Street near to the town hall in Liverpool, England.

Oriel Chambers, and the architect's only other known building at 16 Cook Street, are amongst the city's precursors of modernist architecture.[2]

jackwarshaw
image hosted on flickr



Arturs Tols
image hosted on flickr



Here it is as part of the streetscape (by the taxis)

oneterry
image hosted on flickr

Last edited by Portobello Red; September 9th, 2012 at 10:31 PM.
Portobello Red no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old September 10th, 2012, 02:13 AM   #56
CNB30
centralnatbankbuildingrva
 
CNB30's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: New York (Brooklyn)/Richmond/Philadelphia
Posts: 2,575
Likes (Received): 804

Quote:
Originally Posted by Portobello Red View Post
Oriel Chambers (1864) - 14 Water Street - Liverpool

Oriel Chambers is the world's first metal framed glass curtain walled building. Designed by architect Peter Ellis and built in 1864, it comprises 43,000 sq ft (4,000 m2) set over five floors.[1] A Grade 1 Listed Building, it is located on Water Street near to the town hall in Liverpool, England.

Oriel Chambers, and the architect's only other known building at 16 Cook Street, are amongst the city's precursors of modernist architecture.[2]

jackwarshaw
image hosted on flickr



Arturs Tols
image hosted on flickr



Here it is as part of the streetscape (by the taxis)

oneterry
image hosted on flickr
False, The 1857 E.V. Haugwout building was one of the first cast Iron buildings in the world ( In Soho NYC) to use a cast iron frame, if not before. the modern skyscraper was born in NYC, period.

CNB30 no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old September 10th, 2012, 05:17 AM   #57
CCs77
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 1,113
Likes (Received): 2436

Quote:
Originally Posted by isaidso View Post
Neither!

Skyscrapers were a result of technological advancement and no one city can be credited with it. Chicago and New York were simply the largest cities of the day that were rapidly expanding so this is where the need to go taller was most prevalent. People simply borrowed available technology to build taller. Similar efforts occurred in Melbourne, Toronto, Philadelphia, Sydney, Montreal, Buenos Aires, Liverpool, etc.

Assigning credit to one of these 2 cities is like saying that Detroit is the birthplace of the automobile because the first big factories happened to be built there. Utter nonsense. If Chicago and New York were stagnating in the 1870s and 1880s and Melbourne had 3 million people and booming, the tallest early buildings would have been built there instead.

The skyscraper is a product of advancements in building techniques in the western world. Credit rests with the iron/steel industries, civil engineers, and innovators in the Western world back in the 1870s/1880s.

And we have a winner!!!


I agree with you. For example, gothic cathedrals could be considered as skyscrapers (so much that many earliest office skyscrapers were constructed inspired in those) and when they build the first gothic cathedrals neither of those cities were even founded. Also the romans build, 2000 years ago, "insulaes" apartment buildings that could go up to 7 stories high (and sometimes even 9) that was about the limits of the materials in that time.

But whatsoever, there were mainly two inventions that made possible modern skyscrapers, one was the steel frame, developed mostly in Chicago. The other was the modern "safety elevator" developed in New York by Elisha Otis (Yonkers actually, acording to wikipedia, but I think of it as New York)

And I forgot to mention that the chinese people have been building pagodas for centuries. (as many other ancient civilizatons developed some forms of multi-story buildings)

Last edited by CCs77; September 10th, 2012 at 05:22 AM.
CCs77 no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old September 10th, 2012, 03:46 PM   #58
Portobello Red
____________
 
Portobello Red's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Bootle / Ladbroke Grove
Posts: 14,148
Likes (Received): 14376

Oriel Chambers - Liverpool - 1864
14-16 Water Street, Liverpool, L2 8TD

Engineering Timelines



The first building in the world to make extensive use of glazed curtain wall construction. Considered by some to be the finest building in Liverpool, it is certainly one that had a world-wide influence on the design of tall buildings.

Oriel Chambers has a cast iron frame. Where it isn't glass, it's stone clad — slender full-height masonry piers break up the facades up into bays. Seven bays face Water Street, twelve face Covent Garden (pictured). Between the piers are delicately detailed iron framed oriel windows, tall and rectangular.

The building consists of a basement and three and half storeys of offices. The entry is narrow, placed asymetrically in the Water Street facade. An elongated octagonal window sits above it.

The building had considerable influence on the design of tall office buildings, particularly in America through the American architect John Root's early Chicago skyscrapers. For these he drew heavily on Ellis's work, which he studied first hand while in England to avoid the American Civil War.

The building was not well-received initially by some. The Builder hated it, calling it a "vast abortion" and an "agglomeration of protruding plate glass bubbles". Reilly called it a "cellular habitation for the human insect".

Ellis designed only one other building, also in Liverpool — 16 Cook Street. It dates from 1866 and also features glazed curtain walling. It too received bad reviews at the time. Ellis's later recorded works are civil engineering projects.

A 1959 extension at the rear of Oriel Chambers, by James & Bywaters, replaced a war damaged section.

Architect: Peter Ellis

Research: PD

bibliography

"The Buildings of England: South Lancashire" by Nikolaus Pevsner, Penguin, Harmindsworth, 1969

"Studies in the History of Civil Engineering" edited by R. Thorne, Vol. 10, Structural Iron & Steel 1850-1900, Ashgate, Aldershot, 2000"

A History of Architecture" by Sir Bannister Fletcher, The Athlone Press, London, 1975 (eighteenth edition)
Portobello Red no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old September 10th, 2012, 04:27 PM   #59
tpe
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Chicago & NYC
Posts: 3,562
Likes (Received): 3069

Even a reference as simple as wikipedia got the distinction right:

Quote:
In 1852 Elisha Otis introduced the safety elevator, allowing convenient and safe passenger movement to upper floors. Another crucial development was the use of a steel frame instead of stone or brick, otherwise the walls on the lower floors on a tall building would be too thick to be practical. An early development in this area was Oriel Chambers in Liverpool. Designed by local architect Peter Ellis in 1864, the building was the world's first iron-framed, glass curtain-walled office building. It was only 5 floors high.[30][31][32] Further developments led to the world's first skyscraper, the ten-storey Home Insurance Building in Chicago, built in 1884–1885.[33] While its height is not considered very impressive today, it was at that time. The architect, Major William Le Baron Jenney, created a load-bearing structural frame. In this building, a steel frame supported the entire weight of the walls, instead of load-bearing walls carrying the weight of the building. This development led to the "Chicago skeleton" form of construction.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skyscraper

What is the point of all the obfuscation on this thread? Any material scientist will tell you that STEEL has superior tensile strength compared to IRON. It is STEEL, and not IRON that made HEIGHT possible. The elevator made it PRACTICAL.
tpe no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old October 18th, 2014, 03:41 AM   #60
rayvs99
BANNED
 
Join Date: Jan 2014
Location: Chicagoland
Posts: 398
Likes (Received): 1140

Chi-town
rayvs99 no está en línea   Reply With Quote


Reply

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Related topics on SkyscraperCity


All times are GMT +2. The time now is 07:04 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11 Beta 4
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
Feedback Buttons provided by Advanced Post Thanks / Like (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2017 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.

vBulletin Optimisation provided by vB Optimise (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2017 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.

SkyscraperCity ☆ In Urbanity We trust ☆ about us | privacy policy | DMCA policy

Hosted by Blacksun, dedicated to this site too!
Forum server management by DaiTengu