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Old May 26th, 2009, 11:25 PM   #341
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Quote:
Originally Posted by goschio View Post
If they find a tenant they could start tomorrow.

But to be honest I don't mind if they build a 100-150m tower at the location. Don't think it would be so nice to have 300m+ at this location. More important are high rises in the banking district and a dense urban development in the city IMO.
But don't forget that T365 could be built there without looking too enormous, since it would be surrounded by T185, Messeturm, maybe HH am Güterplatz, and maybe Tower One with 195 to 212m... Thus it wouldn't look too over-dimensioned!
But if I had the choice, I would prefer Marieninsel and Max instead!
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Old May 27th, 2009, 12:00 AM   #342
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i definitely would prefer the Millenium Tower, frankfurt needs its first supertall!
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Old May 27th, 2009, 05:45 AM   #343
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But if I had the choice, I would prefer Marieninsel and Max instead!
Max is the tower that is deferentially missing in the banking district. It was one of the best designs ever.
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Old May 27th, 2009, 11:02 AM   #344
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Max is the tower that is deferentially missing in the banking district. It was one of the best designs ever.
Exactly! It would densen so much the space between Maintower and Commerzbank and with it's design it would have had a good "bridge" function between the two towers!
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Old May 28th, 2009, 05:31 AM   #345
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beautiful and modern!
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Old July 26th, 2009, 12:51 PM   #346
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Quote:
Originally Posted by goschio View Post
Max is the tower that is deferentially missing in the banking district. It was one of the best designs ever.
Really? I can't remember this tower. What did the design look like? Any renders?
Thanks.
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Old August 8th, 2009, 08:07 PM   #347
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where did you read that??
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Old August 10th, 2009, 11:50 AM   #348
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they began to build???
No, it is only approved. And construction won't start before 2013! It's Frankfurt not Moscow or another mega world city! Such a huge project can only be built if there aren't too many other towers built, otherwise it would end up 60% empty!
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Old August 10th, 2009, 11:15 PM   #349
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Hope it will be built, it's a shame that Germany have great engineering's fame with no supertalls buildings.
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Old August 11th, 2009, 11:40 AM   #350
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Hope it will be built, it's a shame that Germany have great engineering's fame with no supertalls buildings.
It's not a shame. It is the market...
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Old August 11th, 2009, 03:14 PM   #351
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It's not a shame. It is the market...
It's also a lot to do with attitude. Outside of Frankfurt, highrises are extremely unpopular for most of the population. And Frankfurt has a terribly "small town" attitude. A city the size of Frankfurt (with or without it's larger urban or metropolitan area) outside of Europe would have a much larger presence of skyscrapers and probably with some taller buildings as well.

That small town attitude is slowly changing though. No help to the current Mayor who even describes Frankfurt as a "Village" !!! But maybe in the next decade or so enough people here will start to treat Frankfurt as the large city it really is.
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Old August 11th, 2009, 03:34 PM   #352
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It's also a lot to do with attitude. Outside of Frankfurt, highrises are extremely unpopular for most of the population. And Frankfurt has a terribly "small town" attitude. A city the size of Frankfurt (with or without it's larger urban or metropolitan area) outside of Europe would have a much larger presence of skyscrapers and probably with some taller buildings as well.

That small town attitude is slowly changing though. No help to the current Mayor who even describes Frankfurt as a "Village" !!! But maybe in the next decade or so enough people here will start to treat Frankfurt as the large city it really is.
Sorry, but int'l comparison Frankfurt IS a village! It has only 660k inhabitants. I don't know too many cities packed with skyscrapers and supertalls which are 660k level. Look around in all of Europe: Apart from London and Paris there is nothing similar although there are many many much bigger cities: Milan, Rome, Madrid, Warsaw, Prague, Vienna, Bucharest, Budapest, Naples,.... they are all at least twice as big as Frankfurt and look at their skyscraper levels!
Why packing a city with skyscrapers that are not needed? Construction of skyscrapers has nothing to with popularity - since they aren't the much hated residential highrises but commercials. If there is demand then there is construction and fullstop. Until now there is no need for T365, if there is, it gets built.
And don't forget the prices for skyscraper construction in FFM! The new ECB should cost 1.4 billion Euros!!!!
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Old August 11th, 2009, 04:02 PM   #353
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Skyline_FFM View Post
Sorry, but int'l comparison Frankfurt IS a village! It has only 660k inhabitants. I don't know too many cities packed with skyscrapers and supertalls which are 660k level. Look around in all of Europe: Apart from London and Paris there is nothing similar although there are many many much bigger cities: Milan, Rome, Madrid, Warsaw, Prague, Vienna, Bucharest, Budapest, Naples,.... they are all at least twice as big as Frankfurt and look at their skyscraper levels!
Would you consider San Francisco, Washington D.C., Amsterdam and Sydney to be villages as well? I guess not...



As for the "small town" attitude, sadly that's a problem in all of Germany and by no means restricted to Frankfurt. In fact, I would argue that Frankfurt is less affected by this than most places in this country (albeit still far too much for my liking). Thinking small has been deeply ingrained in the national psyche since after WWII.

That being said, this particular tower has already been approved and its construction is only a matter of finding a main tenant, not political will.
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Old August 11th, 2009, 04:37 PM   #354
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Skyline_FFM View Post
Sorry, but int'l comparison Frankfurt IS a village! It has only 660k inhabitants. I don't know too many cities packed with skyscrapers and supertalls which are 660k level.
compare Frankfurt to:
Auckland: 438,000
Sydney: 177,000
Melbourne: 71,000
Boston: 609,000
San Francisco: 808,000
Miami: 362,000
Gold Coast (au): 527,000
etc...

I could go on. But I think you get the point. A city is far more than just the political boundary. Auckland is a classic example right now as the cities surrounding it will soon amalgamate into one political area. This will increase the population of Auckland from 438,000 to 1.2million over night. But will Auckland suddenly feel three times larger? Absolutely not. Frankfurt has 670,000 in the city proper, 2.2million in the urban area and around 5million in the metropolitan area. This is not a village.

And before you write that this urban area or metropolitan area is not valid, or that is is so much different in other parts of the world, I have lived in other parts of the world. I've spent most of my life in Sydney which has only 177,000 in the city proper, 3million in the urban area and 4.2million in the metropolitan area (which is about the same size as the Rhein Main) and I can tell you that they operate exactly the same way. There are city's in the metropolitan area which are both as linked and isolated from downtown Sydney as any in the Rhein Main.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Skyline_FFM View Post
Look around in all of Europe: Apart from London and Paris there is nothing similar although there are many many much bigger cities: Milan, Rome, Madrid, Warsaw, Prague, Vienna, Bucharest, Budapest, Naples,.... they are all at least twice as big as Frankfurt and look at their skyscraper levels!
See my post where I wrote "outside of Europe". Europe itself has a distaste for skyscrapers and highrises. Frankfurt is actually one of the few exceptions where the general population of this city actually are quite proud of their skyscrapers.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Skyline_FFM View Post
Why packing a city with skyscrapers that are not needed? Construction of skyscrapers has nothing to with popularity - since they aren't the much hated residential highrises but commercials. If there is demand then there is construction and fullstop. Until now there is no need for T365, if there is, it gets built.
Actually, it also has a lot to do with politics and the developers in Frankfurt. I am friends with one of the leading architects who designed a number of the skyscrapers in Frankfurt and with his own firm. One major problem here is that developers are afraid of mixed developments. There would be a lot more skyscrapers in Frankfurt if these developers mixed apartments with offices like is the trend in other parts of the world. But they are still old school here and refuse to do this. The government doesn't help as it is not encouraging inner city apartment living which is also the trend in other cities around the world right now. Take Auckland for example where in the last five years 20,000 people have moved into new highrise downtown apartments.

Quote:
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And don't forget the prices for skyscraper construction in FFM! The new ECB should cost 1.4 billion Euros!!!!
This is certainly expensive, but it is far more than a standard skyscraper, as it includes the massive heritage market hall, incredible security (being the central European Bank) and the large land area around it.

How a city grows depends a lot on the cities politics, the businesses that exist there and the public's attitudes. Frankfurt is a large city and an important one on a global scale. It's attitude though is not one of a large city. You can't even find a food outlet here open 24hours. I know small towns in backwater parts of New Zealand where you can eat 24hours a day. This city has a lot of potential. What is holding it back is people saying "We can't do that here, we're too small"
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Old August 13th, 2009, 07:58 AM   #355
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I would not refer to any city that has a population of 300,000 or more as a village. It would be a term of disparagement.
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Old August 13th, 2009, 11:21 AM   #356
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I would not refer to any city that has a population of 300,000 or more as a village. It would be a term of disparagement.
Exactly, yet the mayor of Frankfurt has been known to say this about Frankfurt.
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Old August 15th, 2009, 05:59 AM   #357
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compare Frankfurt to:
Sydney: 177,000
Melbourne: 71,000
Hmm... I don't know which Sydney you're referring to (Nova Scotia?) but the Sydney I live in has a population approaching 4.4 million, and Melbourne 3.9 million.
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Old August 15th, 2009, 06:34 AM   #358
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Hmm... I don't know which Sydney you're referring to (Nova Scotia?) but the Sydney I live in has a population approaching 4.4 million, and Melbourne 3.9 million.
Uhh, no.

Sydney, Australia has a population of 177,000. This is the city proper population, you know, the area which actually has a "Mayor". The political boundary, the "actual" city of Sydney. The rest (4.34million) is what is known as the "Metropolitan Area" and contains many other cities and covers more than 12,000km². It is officially called the "Sydney Statistical Area". It's area includes vast parts of the Blue Mountains, right across to the other side and the Central Coast.

Frankfurt also has a metropolitan area which is called the Rhein Main which covers about the same area and has over 5million people.

The political boundary of Frankfurt under a single mayor is the city of Frankfurt which has 670,000people.

The political boundary of Sydney under a single mayor is the city of Sydney which has 177,000people.
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Old August 15th, 2009, 01:49 PM   #359
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Uhh, no.
Sydney, Australia has a population of 177,000. This is the city proper population, you know, the area which actually has a "Mayor". The political boundary, the "actual" city of Sydney. The rest (4.34million) is what is known as the "Metropolitan Area" and contains many other cities and covers more than 12,000km². It is officially called the "Sydney Statistical Area". It's area includes vast parts of the Blue Mountains, right across to the other side and the Central Coast.
The political boundary of Sydney under a single mayor is the city of Sydney which has 177,000people.
Mate, I'm not going to argue with you. I live here. The City of Sydney you're referring to is just one of the many local councils within Sydney and only covers the CBD and immediate surrounds. It has a ceremonial mayor, like most of the other district councils. You may as well claim that London comprises the City and nothng else.
Sydney has a population of about 4.4 million. If you choose to believe otherwise, that's your perogative.
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Old August 15th, 2009, 02:45 PM   #360
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Mate, I'm not going to argue with you. I live here. The City of Sydney you're referring to is just one of the many local councils within Sydney and only covers the CBD and immediate surrounds. It has a ceremonial mayor, like most of the other district councils. You may as well claim that London comprises the City and nothng else.
Sydney has a population of about 4.4 million. If you choose to believe otherwise, that's your perogative.
Mate, I'm also Australian and from Sydney, so I also know what I am talking about regarding.

So, may I ask who exactly is the mayor of the city of 4.4million you describe? There is no single Mayor. That 4.4million area is a regional demographic called the Sydney Statistical Division. The Mayor of "Sydney" has no official powers over any of the other cities or municipalities within the Sydney Statistical Division, just as the Mayor of Frankfurt has no official control over any of the other cities within the Rhein Main.
http://www.abs.gov.au/AUSSTATS/[email protected]=2002-2006
It covers over 12,000km² and as you can see from this map it goes all the way to the other side of the Blue Mountains, North to Lake Macquarie and South to Bargo.
http://www.transport.nsw.gov.au/tdc/.../Sydney-SD.pdf

Just a reference for those not familiar to Sydney. Mt Victoria, on the Western edge is a 2hour and 25minute train journey from Sydney Central Station.

What you are saying Zollern, if I understand you correctly. Is that it is fully acceptable to consider Mt Victoria on the otherside of the Blue Mountains, 2hours and 25minutes away from Sydney Central Station and separated by a vast National Park, Bush and Forest, which doesn't come under the same Mayor as Sydney nor is it in any way related to the Sydney Urban area as "Sydney"... but it is not for instance acceptable to consider Offenbach, a 20minute ride by BICYCLE from central Frankfurt, fully within the Urban Area and directly connected to be considered part of Frankfurt's metropolitan area?

There are different ways to calculate a cities population. One is the city proper, and this is based on a political boundary. Another is the Urban area which is generally the population until you reach the countryside. It does get more complicated than this, but that is the basic rule. Thirdly, there is a metropolitan area figure which is what the Sydney 4.4million is. This is usually a statistical area and in most cases is based on commuter percentages.

Frankfurt also has a metropolitan area that works in very much the same way as Sydney's. It is called the Rhein Main and also includes, just as Sydney's does many other councils.

By the way, as for your reference to London, don't even go there. London had an amalgamation of boroughs which brought a large chunk of the direct urban area into a single government body which is now known as "Greater London". This is a political boundary with a Mayor and in the global sense, the "City Proper". It is NOT however, the full extent of the urban area or metropolitan area and not to be confused with the generic term "Greater" when used with other cities around the world.

The fact remains that the direct equivilent of Frankfurt's city proper is the City of Sydney which has 177,000 people.

If you want to use the 4.4million figure, which by the way is totally fine with me as it is a very valid region, then you have to compare it with the equivilent region in Frankfurt.

Here is the metropolitan region info if you need it:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frankfu...politan_Region
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