NZ | Military Thread

[spotila]

...

[flyin_higher]

Originally Posted by Kane007

The only way to be absolutely sure is to drop a 500 megaton asteroid on them - Extinction Event! Could use one on Iraq, Iran and Afghanistan - the PC way of getting rid of any and all problems .

LOL! Nothing like an ELE to sort things out eh?

[metroman]

I believe New Zealand should merge its military with Australia to form a combined ANZAC military force. Now that Australia has a new government and our relationship is becoming more congruent this is something which really could be workable.

[Milan Luka]

Absolutely not mate. Sovereign states should not 'merge' their military. Hate to make comparisons here but that didnt help in what was once called Yugoslavia. Merge is the wrong word anyway- it would be that NZ would loose its autonomy.

Yep currently the governments are similar. Yet Australia still has a nuclear power plant, and is still seen as a US lackey in the eyes of those we are meant to 'fear'. NZ's current spending on the military would be syphoned off by Australia to patrol its northern border with Indonesia anyway. How does that help us? And then lets say in 15 years time when Australia is led by a right leaning govt and NZ's is left what say would we have when our troops have to fight in Iraq mach 3?

Joint exercises yep, all ok with that. Sharing intelligence yes to that as well. Top level talks of course. Nothing else but.

[metroman]

Yugoslavia is a totally different set of circumstances. Australia and New Zealand are so intertwined and becoming increasingly more so. The amount of money being spent on defence in New Zealand is very small, so much so that our current defence force has been erroded and it will require several billion dollars to get it to a respectable level. As for Australia syphoning off our share of the defence budget on defending the northern tip from Indonesia, that is definetly is not a waste of resources. Indonesia poses just as much of a threat to New Zealand as it does to Australia. There may still be some cultural hurdles between our two countries which are pretty minute, I feel this is the direction we are heading toward. This would be a significant and symbolic step for our two nations.

[gappa]

Australia shares no border with Indonesia - or anyone for that matter.

[MonsieurAquilone]

Was that even said?

[gappa]

Yes.

Originally Posted by Milan Luka

Absolutely not mate. Sovereign states should not 'merge' their military. Hate to make comparisons here but that didnt help in what was once called Yugoslavia. Merge is the wrong word anyway- it would be that NZ would loose its autonomy.

Yep currently the governments are similar. Yet Australia still has a nuclear power plant, and is still seen as a US lackey in the eyes of those we are meant to 'fear'. NZ's current spending on the military would be syphoned off by Australia to patrol its northern border with Indonesia anyway. How does that help us? And then lets say in 15 years time when Australia is led by a right leaning govt and NZ's is left what say would we have when our troops have to fight in Iraq mach 3?

Joint exercises yep, all ok with that. Sharing intelligence yes to that as well. Top level talks of course. Nothing else but.

[metroman]

It just seems to me that merging our military with Australia is a smart way to pool our resources together. New Zealand has some of the best trained military personnel in the world sadly they are operating on a shoestring. Given the opportunity to be part of a much larger ANZAC force would give them access to far better equipment. Sure New Zealand would be a much smaller partner in this arrangement, but the opportunity this could give young people in New Zealand would be huge. At the moment our region is pretty peaceful although Indonesia and China loom as possible threats in the future. New Zealand's contribution to such an arrangement would be ammence in terms of the quality training our present military receive. New Zealand's proud military history, professionalism and high standards could really add something to the ADF.

[MonsieurAquilone]

Originally Posted by gappa

Yes.

Thus the border is shared by sea. It is a border nonetheless.

[nazor]

reform the ANZAC's?

would be a great day in history when that happens!

[Milan Luka]

Im fairly certain there'll be a change of government in New Zealand this year anyway. Lets see if the Nationals keep their promise and fund our military to decent levels again. I'm not overly impressed with the way Labor has let things slide, but have faith that a part of the budget surplus we are sitting on could go into giving youngster faith in joining the NZ military forces. Ive noticed that the army has a shitload of positions available across the board.

NZ's 'bag' lies in peace keeping. They do a fantastic job- and are spoken of very highly by my family in Croatia for the work done there. We dont need to send out guys to be based at Tindall looking out for Indonesian fishing boats.

Once again though. Definately no merging/absorbing/take over, whatever you call it of armed forces. I mean, has that ever happened between two sovereign nations? Besides maybe Switzerland supplying the Vatican?

[sensible]

Originally Posted by metroman

It just seems to me that merging our military with Australia is a smart way to pool our resources together. New Zealand has some of the best trained military personnel in the world sadly they are operating on a shoestring. Given the opportunity to be part of a much larger ANZAC force would give them access to far better equipment. Sure New Zealand would be a much smaller partner in this arrangement, but the opportunity this could give young people in New Zealand would be huge. At the moment our region is pretty peaceful although Indonesia and China loom as possible threats in the future. New Zealand's contribution to such an arrangement would be ammence in terms of the quality training our present military receive. New Zealand's proud military history, professionalism and high standards could really add something to the ADF.

nah man... that misses the point. Soveriegnty and autonomy are ridiculously important and these issues are five star at military level. Dont get me wrong, im all for closer relations defence wise, but the NZ military should never have decisions made for it by Aus (which would be the case of a merger), decisions for NZ should only be made from and by NZ! What you are suggesting, we may as well become the seventh state! Thats what it boils down to. If you want to be australian move there...

The NZ military is very well respected... until it comes to equipment that is. They are just talking about replacing the hercules in 'ten years time'? They should have been replaced in the 1980's!!! So should have the skyhawks! Having 2 frigates is a waste of money too... we need at least four (and in the 1980's the navy was saying it needed at least 6 to actually meet requirements of a modern SMALL navy) or none at all. NZ may be small, but even doubling what we have would still see us with a piddly military, basically it needs to be kept in perspective.

Im not a man of war and dont want to see NZ heading off into one anytime soon but having a small modern navy, airforce and army would ensure we play our part and plus it wouldnt hurt to have some kick arse gear!!! The NZ military is a frickin joke.

[Neitzsche]

Originally Posted by metroman

As for Australia syphoning off our share of the defence budget on defending the northern tip from Indonesia, that is definetly is not a waste of resources. Indonesia poses just as much of a threat to New Zealand as it does to Australia. There may still be some cultural hurdles between our two countries which are pretty minute, I feel this is the direction we are heading toward. This would be a significant and symbolic step for our two nations.

That's a gross misrepresentation of Indonesian military capabilities and a misconception that trades on the old 'their a different colour and have a funny god' chestnut. As it stands Australia is the only country in the region with a military geared for external force projection, Indonesia's military is geared towards internal security. Should there be any intention by Indonesia (god knows why they would, can anyone make even a slightly decent argument on how they could possibly end up better off? They ain't crazy) to mess with oz, or us then they would need a substantial retooling. The ozzies, being solidly allied with the U.S. need regional justifications for force projection military platforms and exaggerate local threats, but i would argue the intention has always been to compliment American military actions.

This little point alone highlights why NZ, which has an independent foreign policy, should remain independent in terms of military capability. As for China, I would argue that the only possible way they would even consider aggression on either NZ or OZ is if they somehow managed to develop first strike capability. - the ability to launch nuclear weapons with a high probability of not suffering a counter strike. That ain't going to happen.

[vuong tt]

This week I have discovered about Anzac Day. I am meant to be studying but am watching the Commeration on tv. All of the Ambassadors are giving flowers in the memorial. I am waiting for Vietnamese ambassador. Have even seen the Iran and American government official. Military remembering days are very big propoganda at home. We would all have our flags ready to waive. On Wednesday 30 April is our Ngày Chiến thắng Ngày Thống nhất which means reunification or victory day. We have festivals across the country. Lots of pictures of Hồ Chí Minh.

[vuong tt]

I think I will stop watching now. The church singing is making me sleep. I need to stay awake for studying.

[metroman]

Anzac is a very important day in both Australia and New Zealand. In Australia it is a very patriotic day, even more so than New Zealand. This really surprises me considering New Zealand's contribution to both World Wars was significantly higher than Australia, when you take into a account our smaller size. An interesting fact is that while Australia had 98 vcs awarded, New Zealand has 23 awarded to 22 men. This doesn't include servicemen who served in the Australian forces in World War 1, at least 2 were awarded vcs. New Zealand' contribution to the Battle of Britain can only be described as immense. Sir Reginal Park, born in Thames and educated at Otago Boys High School was responsible for London's defence during the blitz. He was described by a war minister at the time as the one man who single handedly was responsible for saving England and probably the world. A large proportion of airman were kiwis, as well as three who were successful fighter aces. In terms of military casualties, New Zealand suffered the second highest casualty rate of World War 2 after Russia. When I think how proud I am of being a New Zealander these facts come to mind. Very sad how they are so often overlooked.

[KIWIKAAS]

NZ certainly contributed alot to the allies efforts in both World Wars.
What does irritate me sometimes is the way the Gallipoli campaign has been pretty much taken into ownage by Australia and New Zealand.
You never hear a word about the 10,000 French and Senegalese that died and the 17,000 wounded in the campaign(which is as many as all Anzac dead combined). The Britsh lost over 21,000 lives and 52,000 wounded. Then of course you have the Turkish casualties which were by far the highest.
Gallipoli is offen portrayed as the brave ANZACs being sent to the slaughter by arrogant British officers (see the film Gallipoli = total nonsense).

[Svartmetall]

It's strange that it happens here in general with people being completely oblivious to the actual percentage losses experienced by countries involved in both WW1 and WW2... But I digress.

Rememberance shouldn't be about one nation in particular EVER, it should be about all involved: axis/ally or triple entente/central powers - everyone. It is a time for sad reflection at the losses experienced by all and a pledge every year to never let the same happen again. Nationalism shouldn't ever enter the equation.

[Milan Luka]

Having spent numerous Anzac Days in both countries one thing does surprise me. In NZ the Australian contribution is mentioned alot, news services here carry plenty of coverage from Australian correspondants in Sydney and Canberra. That kind of surprised me, in Australia unless you watched the ABC or SBS you could be forgiven for thinking that Australia was the only country involved in the Anzacs.

Anybody know the population of Russia during WW2. Im certain that their 23 million dead was still a massive percentage. I always think of Belgium as suffering plenty of casualties during the Great War especially, Anton do you know the figures there mate?