NZ | Military Thread

[Brizzy-Mike]

Invading NZ, has NZ got oil or something?

[greenwelly]

Originally Posted by Brizzy-Mike

Invading NZ, has NZ got oil or something?

How about plenty of water .........

[jarbury]

An interesting "Pundit" article on this issue: http://pundit.co.nz/content/the-new-...od-cop-bad-cop

[KaneD]

And Skyline Myline, can you enlighten us as to why Australia would actually 'want' or 'need' to invade New Zealand?

There is little point in spending massive sums of cash developing a defence force to protect us from an 'imaginary' enemy.

Australia is simply not likely in this century to invade us - we need them economically... and they need us. Out allies (US and UK for example) are the same as Australia's so I'm not sure how that will work even if they wanted to invade?

A defence force is built us to protect us from possible and expected attacks - For New Zealand, as has been pointed out, there are very few countries that could realistically take on New Zealand, and of those, none are particularly likely to even want to invade us.

Our greatest threat, and even then we are still considered low risk, is terrorism. And for that, I can't see why we would be fighting terrorism with Aircraft Carriers and FA-18's

[Skyline Myline]

Originally Posted by KaneD

And Skyline Myline, can you enlighten us as to why Australia would actually 'want' or 'need' to invade New Zealand?

There is little point in spending massive sums of cash developing a defence force to protect us from an 'imaginary' enemy.

Australia is simply not likely in this century to invade us - we need them economically... and they need us. Out allies (US and UK for example) are the same as Australia's so I'm not sure how that will work even if they wanted to invade?

A defence force is built us to protect us from possible and expected attacks - For New Zealand, as has been pointed out, there are very few countries that could realistically take on New Zealand, and of those, none are particularly likely to even want to invade us.

Our greatest threat, and even then we are still considered low risk, is terrorism. And for that, I can't see why we would be fighting terrorism with Aircraft Carriers and FA-18's

KaneD
As stated by Kane007 not too many (if any) countries would want to invade NZ persay esp. Australia. However I think part of Australia's military strategy is now looking at the potential/possibility of NZ being invaded by a future/present hostile force (against Australia) and using NZ as a stepping stone/beachhead to Australia's eastern seaboard. This is part of the justification of Australia's military not just concentrating on a northern defence but a west base and east base focus as well. Although in agreement with Kane007 I wanted to point out to Kane007 that due to this concept Australia does have the military capability to invade/liberate NZ. As Australia's military strength increases this capability is made easier (they are now in the process of commencing a build of two amphibious/aircraft, troop ,hardware carriers. I also am in agreement with you KaneD that NZ greatest threat at the moment is terrorism. As/if Australia perceives invasion of NZ (as a stepping stone to gain Australia's mineral wealth etc) as a possible scenario and as Australia is growing in military might they could possibly lend/lease a squadron of the 100 to 125 F35 joint strike fighter that they are to take delivery of or possibly some other military hardware that NZ could make use of on Australia's behalf. Also worth reading is Jarbury's link to "pundit".

[jarbury]

I reckon most of the military strategists who come up with crazy ideas like countries invading NZ are still stuck in the cold war days and rather bored.

Classic example is that American guy who put together his "the next 100 years" book, or something like that. The Listener even did a cover-piece on it, and I couldn't help but think "hey wake up, it's not the 1980s anymore".

[metroman]

This really brings up to the topic of a union with Australia. The final barrier at the moment are passports. New Zealand is always going to need very tight border controls because of our unique wildlife. Our role in the future is essentially as a policeman for the U.N. This will still mean a good military force is needed none the less. Sharing the defence bill is logical and it is naive to think that there aren't any real threats in the Asia Pacific region because there are a number of possible scenarios. While it is a rediculous scenario of Australia invading New Zealand. They are doing it economically. Australia may indeed look to New Zealand to expand its mining interests. At the moment New Zealand is hardly a real player in mining or energy production, that is largely to do with government policies, don't think for a moment that we haven't come across on their radar as future sources.

[KaneD]

Agreed metroman - as unpopular a union with Australia would be, it would have advantages.

The first step would probably be an Oceanic Dollar - Perhaps Oz, NZ, PNG and pacific island (fiji, tonga etc).

But this is a diffierent topic for a different forum.

[Milan Luka]

Oh no no no no no. I cant get on board with that.

Australia is not there to support NZs military shortcomings. We can hardly keep our northern border safe! Ive stayed out of this thread because Im afraid I will rant and not do my position any good service.

Whether it is true or not we would see it as NZ getting a free ride on the Australian taxpayer. No Australian would like that. Even when the irony seems to be we make so much money from you guys skimming profits from 'your' malls, supermarkets, banks.

And not the place for it but no currency 'union' per se. If Pacific nations, including New Zealand want a union they can adopt the Australian Dollar and nothing else. We do not need to change our currency to be more inclusive of NZ or Fiji or PNG. I think as the bigger, more stable nation with the (by far) larger economy we can call the shots on that one.

[metroman]

It is the most likely scenario I would agree with Milan. New Zealand adopting the Aussie dollar. As for the other nations of the pacific, I think they are probably too unstable. If New Zealand does become part of a joint defence initiative, it certainly would be paying its way. Added to that more Kiwis in the Adf which already has a reasonable number would further improve it. The New Zealand SaS are amongst the best units in the world.

[cambennett]

Union with Australia? There is nothing in it for the Aussies that's for sure so why would they bother.

As for adopting the Aussie dollar? Maybe i'm reacting to that on purely emotional grounds but the thought of adopting another nation's currency does not appeal to me.

It wouldn't be a union like Europe it would be us absorbed in to Aussie which would make us a de facto state of Australia. I don't think that would do a a lot for either country would it?

I also agree Australia is not there to support our Military or other shortcomings we are an independent nation who needs to stand on our own two feet. If we want a military alliance with anyone else we need to bring somthing to the table to make it worthwhile to them as well. As has been pointed out they have enough on their plate defending their northern border they don't need to carry us as well.

[metroman]

You make it sound as though New Zealand would be a liability to Australia. While New Zealand maybe suffering a little more than Australia in this recession it is highly likely that we will be in positive growth territory towards the end of the year. If New Zealand contributed to Australia's defence budget then I can tell you for a fact it certainly wouldn't be a case of Australia taking on extra baggage. That is basically what is being envisaged. While New Zealand may have run down its military forces, it does have some of the best service men and women in the world, a combined force would not only be logical but also symbolic. New Zealand is hardly a basket case of a country, a union is already taking place although it is not likely that we will have senators in Canberra. I think New Zealand will retain much of its sovereignty and culture, Kiwis are simply too proud and patriotic to be assimilated into an extra state of Australia.

[Svartmetall]

Not to mention the economies aren't exactly well matched overall. I much prefer the NZ economic outlook to the Australian (despite how hard NZ was hit in this recession compared to Oz). NZ should look at better ties with Asian countries rather than Australia, a single union isn't necessarily to NZ's benefit.

[MelboyPete]

NZ and Aus becoming one country....I won't say it will never happen but the chances of this occuring is pretty remote. Aussies would probably be against it due to perceived lack of economic benefit to Australia and Kiwis would be against it because they'd fear loss of identity and being overshadowed in a global sense.

[cambennett]

Originally Posted by metroman

You make it sound as though New Zealand would be a liability to Australia. While New Zealand maybe suffering a little more than Australia in this recession it is highly likely that we will be in positive growth territory towards the end of the year. If New Zealand contributed to Australia's defence budget then I can tell you for a fact it certainly wouldn't be a case of Australia taking on extra baggage. That is basically what is being envisaged. While New Zealand may have run down its military forces, it does have some of the best service men and women in the world, a combined force would not only be logical but also symbolic. New Zealand is hardly a basket case of a country, a union is already taking place although it is not likely that we will have senators in Canberra. I think New Zealand will retain much of its sovereignty and culture, Kiwis are simply too proud and patriotic to be assimilated into an extra state of Australia.

Based on our Milatary capabilites at the moment were would sure as hell not be a major asset would we?

One thing i do agree is we are not a basket case economy according to the graph svartmetall posted we are actually reasonably stable, so why would we need to adopt the Aussie dollar?

Having a close relationship econmically makes sense, we already have that with CER. A "union" as such does not. Australia does not need or want one with NZ. NZ would not be an equal partner in a union anyway, any economic descisions made would be made soley for the benefit of Australia. We would as i said become a de facto state. How would that be good for us?

Australia is not there to help NZ along they are their own nation with their own goals and aspirations. They for most part couldn't give a rats arse about NZ and nor should they. NZ needs to forge it's own destiny without trying to rid on the coattails of our bigger neighbour. We will always have a close relationship with them as the nearest economy of any size to NZ.

As for co -operating militarly i agree we should where it makes sense but if we want that it has to be mutually beneficial we have offer somthing substantial to them to make it worthwhile.

[cambennett]

Originally Posted by MelboyPete

NZ and Aus becoming one country....I won't say it will never happen but the chances of this occuring is pretty remote. Aussies would probably be against it due to perceived lack of economic benefit to Australia and Kiwis would be against it because they'd fear loss of identity and being overshadowed in a global sense.

Bang on the money, Aussie have nothing to gain, NZ has a lot to lose.

[Brizzy-Mike]

NZ is probably one major disaster away from union with Oz. A devastating earthquake in Wellington would raise the issue, but one of Ak's volcanoes blowing its top would see 1000's of refugees pouring over this way.

[Richard7666]

I dunno, realistically I think climate-related disasters/economic issues are more likely to send Australians this way in the next century than vice-versa.

[Extare]

Originally Posted by Svartmetall

Not to mention the economies aren't exactly well matched overall. I much prefer the NZ economic outlook to the Australian.

Do you mean that you think NZ will economically outperform Australia in the long run, or that you prefer NZ's economic policies?

[OptomistOne]

Just in case there is still some lingering doubt about Australia's overall military capability in the context of NZ the following report puts the issue in little doubt...

AUSTRALIA'S defence budget is now the 13th biggest in the world, an international league table shows.

Canberra's defence spending has leapt by about 56 per cent in the past seven years to $25.66 billion, meaning it now spends more than most European Union countries.

BIG DEFENCE SPENDERS
1. US $US696.30 billion
2. Britain $US79.27 billion
3. France $US65.74 billion.
4. China $US58.07 billion
5. Japan $US48.10 billion
6. Germany $US43.55 billion
7. Saudi Arabia $US38.32 billion
8. Russian Federation $US36.73 billion
9. Italy $US31.40 billion
10. South Korea $US28.30 billion
11. India $US27.21 billion
12. Brazil $US24.62 billion
13. Australia $US19.74 billion
14. Spain $US19.37 billion
15. Canada $US16.19 billion

Source: Jane's Industry Quarterly

Jane's has forecast Australia's spending to hit $29.47 billion in 2010 which would mean we would be the 10th largest in the world.

I also agree that an Australian invasion of NZ will never happen.

If Australia wanted to deny a foreign agressor from using NZ as a possible base to attack Australia from, the capabilties Australia is building would be more than sufficient to deny that foreign power from getting a proper foothold in NZ in the first place.

Australia will have at least 3 squadrons of F35's, 18 Super Hornets, a submarine fleet of 12, at least 3 Air Warfare Destroyers, a squadron of AWACs and a fleet of air to air refuellers - and some of the subs will be fitted with long range cruise missles.

An OZ invasion of NZ will never happen ( unless you count the 1,000,000 visitors who arrived last year that is!!)