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Old December 15th, 2010, 06:46 AM   #101
Nexis
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thats a cool station. is the upgradation work still on?
All High level improvement projects in NJ are half done , meaning one platform is fully open.

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Serves : Raritan Valley line , Future > Philpsburg extensions , West Trenton line
Built : 1940s?
Rebuilt : 2009-2011
Tracks : 2
Platforms : 2


Old Station - Currently used for office or retail space




New Station , and Platforms


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Old August 21st, 2017, 11:19 PM   #102
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Heya. I recentley undertook a big tour of Europe on train. Finally got to ride the Swiss system (which is the best in Europe hands down) but also PKP, DB, OEBB and SNCF.

Together with past trips I am noticing that more and more European countries seem to adopt somewhat standardized Deutsche-Bahn style signage in stations. This includes white signs on blue backgrounds, same for electronic boards. The DB style is now common in Poland and Austria, Switzerland but also Czechia AFAIK and to some degree Hungary. France uses darker blue and capital letters, and it often uses letter-based numbering for platforms, but guidancd signage is similar to Germany. Even London St. Pancras uses German-inspired signage.

The question is: is there any formal agreement for more standardization in station signage in Europe for new refurbishments? Because the tendency seems to exist.
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Old August 21st, 2017, 11:54 PM   #103
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This signage style is one of the few things the DB have gotten right. In many other respects the DB are working hard on running down a once really good and well maintained system. Not to forget how it is almost ignoring big rail infrastructure projects across the border and letting huge investments abroad end in German railway back alleys with dubious promisses of upgrading these major corridors ... one day.

Ok, enough ranting for today. I have had similar thoughts on my travels. It really looks like there is some common standards on new rail projects. Maybe there is even some European or even International standard on the matter? I have no idea but the tendency on the ground is clear.
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Old August 22nd, 2017, 12:08 AM   #104
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Italy uses - consequently everywhere - yellow (amber) letters on black background on the departures/arrivals boards. This makes an exception.

If I am not mistaken, those blue-white markings are according to a kind of standard or norm.

Another such standard, used even in Italy, is that on the static timetable boards or posters, the departures have yellow background, the arrivals have white background. And practically each railway (each I know) applies now more or less the same layout of those timetable posters - an example from Poland:



A non-consequent thing is that some countries (e.g. Poland) use platform numbers (and track numbers in addition), some countries (Germany, Italy) use track numbers in the passenger information.

Sometimes it's a bit annoying. At my station, there are two platforms, each with a single platform edge. And they always announce: "the train X will depart from the platform 1, track 2", "the train Y will depart from the platform 2, track 1". Because it happened to be so that the track at the platform 1 is the track 2 and the track at the platform 2 is the track 1. In such cases, when it is enough to indicate the platform number, they should restrain from indicating the track number too.

It is also interesting that in Italy, although they tell and show the track numbers, those numbers are announced as platform numbers.

Last edited by Kpc21; August 22nd, 2017 at 12:17 AM.
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Old August 23rd, 2017, 09:11 AM   #105
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A non-consequent thing is that some countries (e.g. Poland) use platform numbers (and track numbers in addition), some countries (Germany, Italy) use track numbers in the passenger information.
The Netherlands also only used track numbers. That may cause some weird numbering if you don't understand the logic.
Let me explain with some examples: Tracks are usually numbered in the order in which they were built. Because of this in Nijmegen track 35 is on the same platform as track 1. At Hengelo tracks 2, 3 and 11 are on the same platform. At Utrecht the situation gets really weird as a lot of tracks have been removed and not renumbered (yet?), so you jump from track 15 to 18 without any tracks in between.
As long as the signage is correct it shouldn't cause any problems, though.
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Old August 23rd, 2017, 11:43 AM   #106
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In Belgium, tracks numbered consecutively with number one attributed to the track closest to the station building. Only known counter example is Antwerp where tracks are on 3 different levels and numbered 1 to 6, 11 to 14, and 21 to 24 to reflect this. There are some variants, mostly using letters, for stub tracks but that tends to become very rare.
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Old August 23rd, 2017, 03:51 PM   #107
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A non-consequent thing is that some countries (e.g. Poland) use platform numbers (and track numbers in addition), some countries (Germany, Italy) use track numbers in the passenger information.
The way I always interpreted track numbers in Germany was that it was just another way to call it platform numbers - they are interchangeable. i.e. track 15 (Gleis 15) in a German train station would be Platform 15 in a UK train station.

Also, looking up Gleis in a German/English dictionary, it translates to both track and platform.
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Old August 23rd, 2017, 08:45 PM   #108
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It is also interesting that in Italy, although they tell and show the track numbers, those numbers are announced as platform numbers.
Same in Austria. Even though "Gleis" (track) is used as well.
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Old August 23rd, 2017, 09:43 PM   #109
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So do they normally announce e.g. Bahnsteig 5, and it actually means Gleis 5, i.e. a single platform with two platform edges has two numbers (and they are announced as platform numbers, not as track numbers)?

In Poland the track numbering is sometimes weird. Like the example I told you about, where we have two single-edge platforms, but the platform numbers and the track numbers are exchanged.

Reason? The platforms are normally numbered consecutively from the station building. If there are platforms on both sides on the building, the numbering is from 1 on one side and from the first free number on the other side, e.g.

Code:
| Pl. 6 || Pl. 5 || Pl. 4  [BUILDING]  Pl. 1 || Pl. 2 || Pl. 3 |
But the tracks are numbered so that the main tracks of the railway line have the lowest numbers. And while it's not a problem to change the platforms numbering if there is such a need, because those numbers are only for the needs of passenger information, the numbers of the tracks are related to the technical aspects of how the station operates and they are not so easily changeable.

So, in my case, the station is on a single-track railway line. The platform at the station building (platform 1) is at an additional track, the other platform (platform 2) is at the main track. Hence this weird numbering.

In Germany, I know the station Karlsruhe Hbf. The first platform edges there from the station building are... the tracks 101 and 102 (which are, by the way, blind tracks, used only by the trains starting at this station and going in the western direction - in practice it means the diesel trains towards Karlsruhe West, Wrth Rhein and further to Landau, Neustadt Weinstrae and some of those trains go to Kaiserslautern). After the track 102, there are the through tracks with normal numbering - consecutively from 1 to 14.

But they never call those numbers platform (Bahnsteig) numbers. Those are track (Gleis) numbers, while the platforms (Bahnsteige) are not numbered.

It's more interesting at bus stations - I believe, in English, the thing which is numbered there is called gate (so same as at airports). In German it's Bussteig, which literally also means platform (just with Bahn replaced with Bus, because Bahn means railway and maybe it would sound weird - even though the German word for a bus station is Busbahnhof and they have no problems with the word Bahn there).

In Polish, a totally different word is used for that - stanowisko, literally "stand" or something like this. Although on the new bus station in Łdź, on the directional signs, the word "peron" (platform, like in railway) is used.

You can see the diagram of the train station Łdź Kaliska, with the platform ("Peron") and track numbers (just on the track lines). All the tracks at the station have numbers, also those without platforms (like the track 1 here), so there are also some gaps in the track numbering "visible" for passengers. In this case, the platform 1 has the track 2, the platform 2 has the tracks 3 and... 5, while the track 1 has no platform at all (it's used by freight trains to overpass the passenger trains waiting at the platforms). The main tracks are marked with bold.

The diagram: http://semaforek.kolej.org.pl/wiki/h...dz_Kaliska.png
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Old August 23rd, 2017, 11:06 PM   #110
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Not so. Platform is "Bahnsteig", has no number. Track is "Gleis", and that is what has numbers, i.e. a standard platform has two tracks with numbers, some only one, and rarely more than two.
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Old August 23rd, 2017, 11:12 PM   #111
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So do they normally announce e.g. Bahnsteig 5, and it actually means Gleis 5, i.e. a single platform with two platform edges has two numbers (and they are announced as platform numbers, not as track numbers)?
Basically yes. Platforms as such are marked like "Bahnsteig 1-2", but train references are just made to the very track ("Bahnsteig 2"). I listened again to some anouncement as I think I have heard "Gleis" (track) used as well already, but the computerized standard anouncements generally use Bahnsteig instead.

While this might look funny, it is really the best way of doing it I think. Even though replacing the word "Bahnsteig" with "Gleis" would make things more straight forward. Yet, there can be no misunderstanding, at least none of any consequence.

If you look closely you see that it says "Bahnsteig/platform" above the numbers, but it really is the track number.


http://wien-hbf.at/wp-content/upload...n_wien_hbf.jpg
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Old August 24th, 2017, 12:37 AM   #112
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Not so. Platform is "Bahnsteig", has no number. Track is "Gleis", and that is what has numbers, i.e. a standard platform has two tracks with numbers, some only one, and rarely more than two.
Yes, I know it's so in Germany, I was asking Slartibartfas about Austria

So Slartibartfas, thanks for the answer.
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Old August 24th, 2017, 06:11 PM   #113
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Together with past trips I am noticing that more and more European countries seem to adopt somewhat standardized Deutsche-Bahn style signage in stations. This includes white signs on blue backgrounds, same for electronic boards. The DB style is now common in Poland and Austria, Switzerland but also Czechia AFAIK and to some degree Hungary. France uses darker blue and capital letters, and it often uses letter-based numbering for platforms, but guidancd signage is similar to Germany. Even London St. Pancras uses German-inspired signage.
It's highly unlikely that white-on-blue signage originates in Germany, as I have found pictures from the late sixties that show white(or pale yellow)-on-blue sings on Dutch stations, but I've also seen quite some pictures of German stations in the seventies that still have black-on-white sings.
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Old August 24th, 2017, 10:32 PM   #114
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This signage style is one of the few things the DB have gotten right. In many other respects the DB are working hard on running down a once really good and well maintained system. Not to forget how it is almost ignoring big rail infrastructure projects across the border and letting huge investments abroad end in German railway back alleys with dubious promisses of upgrading these major corridors ... one day.

Ok, enough ranting for today. I have had similar thoughts on my travels. It really looks like there is some common standards on new rail projects. Maybe there is even some European or even International standard on the matter? I have no idea but the tendency on the ground is clear.
How exactly is DB running down the German rail system?
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Old August 24th, 2017, 11:14 PM   #115
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It started with the ambition to bring the DB to the stock exchange and largely privatize it. If not in owner structure at least in management principles private buisiness practices took ground. In order to make the company profitable the easiest way is of course to cut down on maintenance. There is a lot of wiggle room there and if you cut back maintenance now, negative effects won't be seen until some years down the road when the current CEO will have taken already the parachute. The quality of the network was pretty good so reducing maintenance to a lower level still secured operationality but it is typical short termism. Saving costs now but being haunted in the decades to come.

What is especially disappointing is also how the DB seems to be systematically ignoring the big rail corridor projects in the neighbouring countries. Sure there are connecting projects on the German side, but the priority is so low that Berlin airport will open before they are anywhere near completion. It is not like the Gotthard Base Tunnel came out of nowhere but where is the German part of the corridor? Apparently it is much harder to build a regular rail in Germany than one of the largest tunnels of the world in Switzerland.

Another aspect is the human resource management. Personal resources have been cut back to the bare minimum, especially in regards to train drivers etc. It is perfectly enough if everything runs according to plan. But throw a spade into the rail service and it all comes crashing down. It just happened recently again. Operational problems are inflated that way into small desasters.

The DB is also deliberately destroying parts of its service based on lies. Take the night trains. DB claimed they had to close it down because of ever decreasing customer interest and bad usage numbers. If I am not mistaken they had to admit that this was simply not true, even though the DB really tried hard to make it true. Maintenance of night trains and service really went downhill some time ago and that was especially apparent when compared with BB night trains. Luckily the BB have taken over several lines at least of what the DB obviously did not want to operate anymore, despite demand.

And then of course you have their railwaystations. Even large railway stations are often missing heated and accessible waiting rooms, open for customers, also at night. Many of them are forcing customers to visit commercial spaces and restaurants if they want to rest or don't want to freeze (because many stations are not heated or can not be heated). Short term financial interests are seen more important than making the service attractive to customers.

Don't get me wrong, the DB network is still fairly proper and service quality ok-ish. But it is hard to miss how it went downhill in many respects over the last one or two decades.
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Old August 25th, 2017, 12:27 PM   #116
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It's highly unlikely that white-on-blue signage originates in Germany, as I have found pictures from the late sixties that show white(or pale yellow)-on-blue sings on Dutch stations, but I've also seen quite some pictures of German stations in the seventies that still have black-on-white sings.
You can still find black on white with a blue lining on some stations that have not been refurbished in a long time. If I recall correctly, blue on white was common for some time in France and some other countries before it was introduced on German stations.
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Old August 25th, 2017, 10:14 PM   #117
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In Kge south of Copenhagen in Denmark we are building this beauty


http://koegenordstation.dk/



The most recent pictures I got is these.








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Old August 26th, 2017, 11:35 AM   #118
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I like the interior design a lot but it looks to me more like an upgraded highway/railway overpass with attached platforms. Does it really come with an almost total lack of any form of infrastructure? I mean something like ticket/customer information, bakery/coffee shop etc? Or did I miss those?
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Old August 27th, 2017, 09:00 AM   #119
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On the western side, next to the long distance platforms there should be some service buildings, supermarked, bus stops, apartments office buildings etc etc.

The eastern access is right in the middle of a area with houses and bicycle/pedestrian paths, so here there will be nothing besides some bicycle parking.

Btw the first bridge sections above the S-train tracks should be lifted in place here in september so we should see how it will look in a few weeks time.
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