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Old November 2nd, 2015, 07:56 AM   #181
Myrtonos
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But it's low floor yet on a narrower gauge than the high floor ones of the early 50s. What a paradox if you think about it? If only they could find a suppiler tooled for their historic gauge, instead of only a narrower one, would things be different.
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Old November 2nd, 2015, 01:46 PM   #182
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Originally Posted by natiboy View Post
First Streetcar Vehicle Set to Arrive in Cincinnati on Friday

Source: http://www.cincinnati-oh.gov/cityofc...riday-morning/
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Our first streetcar since the 1950's has arrived!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dr7FSi4X3IA
Congratulations!
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But it's low floor yet on a narrower gauge than the high floor ones of the early 50s. What a paradox if you think about it? If only they could find a suppiler tooled for their historic gauge, instead of only a narrower one, would things be different.
1588 mm gauge is a bit uncommon. With 1435 mm stamdard gauge they can buy new rolling stock in cooperation with some other public transport authority.
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Old November 2nd, 2015, 03:56 PM   #183
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Originally Posted by Myrtonos View Post
But it's low floor yet on a narrower gauge than the high floor ones of the early 50s. What a paradox if you think about it? If only they could find a suppiler tooled for their historic gauge, instead of only a narrower one, would things be different.
What are you nagging about. Is it really that weird they chose for the internationally most frequently used raile gauge?
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Old November 2nd, 2015, 03:58 PM   #184
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When you consider the historical backdrop, yes it is, as well as the fact that three other networks in the same country still retain that gauge with no intent of regauging.
Think of it this way, if you build to the internationally most frequently used gauge in an area where a previous system was build to another, you are effectively convertig from a gauge that is a bit uncommon (though still extant in this case, and in the some country), to a more frequently used gauge.

Last edited by Myrtonos; November 2nd, 2015 at 04:05 PM.
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Old November 2nd, 2015, 04:12 PM   #185
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Indeed they are. Why wouldn't they? All the tracks that are going to be used will be new tracks anyway. Don't know what other systems use the old gauge, but the new Cincinnati system will be built to light rail standard. So they wouldn't be comparable (different type of rail). If they wanted to buy back and reuse some of their old (heritage) streetcars, those would have to be modified anyway.

Complaining about this is very much like the guy complaining about why they didn't opt for unidirectional cars "because they had it in the old days too, and it works for Toronto". Well no shit. Trolley cars can't reverse properly, and it would hinder potential conversion to light rail where one could have stub-ends (using these same vehicles, mind you). And Toronto is still working with the old system, because they don't have to rebuild a whole network. If you build it, build it right. Every new system is bidirectional because the benefits outweigh the cons.
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Old November 2nd, 2015, 04:17 PM   #186
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Indeed they are. Why wouldn't they? All the tracks that are going to be used will be new tracks anyway. Don't know what other systems use the old gauge, but the new Cincinnati system will be built to light rail standard. So they wouldn't be comparable (different type of rail). If they wanted to buy back and reuse some of their old (heritage) streetcars, those would have to be modified anyway.
But what I'm saying is that the current tramway revival might have looked more interresting to the enthusiast if only they could pull off the financially impractical.

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Complaining about this is very much like the guy complaining about why they didn't opt for unidirectional cars "because they had it in the old days too, and it works for Toronto". Well no shit. Trolley cars can't reverse properly, and it would hinder potential conversion to light rail (same vehicles, mind you), and Toronto is still working with the old system. Every new system is bidirectional because it has a lot of benefits.
But someone else on this forum, known as historyworks has advocated unidirectional running for newbuild systems claiming that big European operators retain it for good operational reasons, and claims that bidirectional running on new systems is due to operational conservatism.
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Old November 2nd, 2015, 05:50 PM   #187
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Can't think of a single new European system that uses unidirectional trams. Maybe somewhere in Russia. "Operational reasons" in this case means that it's a hassle to change it, for no good reason, when infrastructure is already in place. The time difference between a small loop and a stub-end is only seconds
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Old November 2nd, 2015, 06:06 PM   #188
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Maybe I am missing the point, but I do not see any reason why we would not build the new streetcar system using standard gauge tracks. While it is true that Cincinnati's old system had nearly 300 miles of Pennsylvania Trolley Gauge track, it has been buried under asphalt for decades and is not reusable. The new system is also being built above "streetcar" standards so that it can handle light longer and heavier LRVs in the future.

Cincinnati's old streetcar also used a two-wire system while the modern one uses a one-wire system.

Really, the only thing in common between the old and new systems is the numbering scheme (the last historic streetcar was #1174 and the first modern one is #1175) and the color scheme.

BTW, here are a few of my photos from the arrival of the first modern streetcar (#1175) on Friday.
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Old November 3rd, 2015, 02:21 AM   #189
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MrAronymous View Post
Can't think of a single new European system that uses unidirectional trams. Maybe somewhere in Russia. "Operational reasons" in this case means that it's a hassle to change it, for no good reason, when infrastructure is already in place. The time difference between a small loop and a stub-end is only seconds
How much of a hassle to change it would it be when it's possible to have a cab at the other end and doors on the other side without using them. Fact is that that historyworks guy has spoken directly with European operators about this.
Currently, transit users in Cincinnatti would travel forwards on their busses, just like their old trams, with seats most certainly fixed front facing. But now, for the first time, they will be faced with travelling backwards.

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Maybe I am missing the point, but I do not see any reason why we would not build the new streetcar system using standard gauge tracks. While it is true that Cincinnati's old system had nearly 300 miles of Pennsylvania Trolley Gauge track, it has been buried under asphalt for decades and is not reusable. The new system is also being built above "streetcar" standards so that it can handle light longer and heavier LRVs in the future.
The point is that the suppiler they chose appears only to be tooled for metre and standard gauge. What if they could pull of the impossible and find a supplier that was tooled for the previous gauge, in this case wider than standard.

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Cincinnati's old streetcar also used a two-wire system while the modern one uses a one-wire system.
And such a system would permit sharing power supply with road vehicles such as trolleybuses and trolleytrucks. As trolleybuses are still available, with twin trollepoles, one could implement a twin-trolleypole tramway today without any special parts.
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Old November 3rd, 2015, 03:03 AM   #190
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CAF have 1588 mm gauge rail vehicle in their portfolio (Pittsburgh's CAF LRV). There would be like two changes between 1435 mm gauge streetcar bogie and 1588 mm. But of course, streetcars with uncommon bogies are expensive.
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Old November 3rd, 2015, 04:46 AM   #191
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But the point is, I couldn't see any reason to go with anything other than the historic gauge, let alone anything narrower, other than saving the cost of rolling stock.
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Old November 3rd, 2015, 05:36 PM   #192
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How much of a hassle to change it would it be when it's possible to have a cab at the other end and doors on the other side without using them. Fact is that that historyworks guy has spoken directly with European operators about this.
Sure, you can put bidirectional trains on unidirectional infrastructure (all stations on the same side and end loops), but why would you, when you already have that infrastructure? To have a bidirectional train perform exactly the same as a unidirectional one, including using loops, is not very efficient. Why? Because one set of doors would never get used, and there would be less seats where you could have had more. That doesn't outweigh the benefit of bidirectional trains (being able to turn right away). Though, if a city decides to add a whole section of a line to a system, and wants to use bidirectional trains and a stub end, I say go for it, even if you would not use the doors on one side on the older part of the line.

Quote:
Currently, transit users in Cincinnatti would travel forwards on their busses, just like their old trams, with seats most certainly fixed front facing. But now, for the first time, they will be faced with travelling backwards.
So what's the problem with that? Technically, backwards seats are safer (same goes for airplanes and buses). But it's a non-issue anyway.

Quote:
The point is that the suppiler they chose appears only to be tooled for metre and standard gauge. What if they could pull of the impossible and find a supplier that was tooled for the previous gauge, in this case wider than standard.
Not true.

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And such a system would permit sharing power supply with road vehicles such as trolleybuses and trolleytrucks. As trolleybuses are still available, with twin trollepoles, one could implement a twin-trolleypole tramway today without any special parts.
But the thing is, trolley poles are inferior. Why do you think all new rail systems have pantographs? It's for good reason. And you have to consider they might add light rail segments (means: reserved right of way and higher speeds) to the system, where trolley poles would not work out.

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But the point is, I couldn't see any reason to go with anything other than the historic gauge, let alone anything narrower, other than saving the cost of rolling stock.
Why would you purposely build something to older standards (not a lot of Penn gauge track left vs. standard gauge worldwide), if not for sentimental reasons? It's not only about the current streetcars, but maybe new light rail trains in the future, maintenance equipment , etc. that all will be easier to aqcuire.
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Old November 4th, 2015, 03:49 AM   #193
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Sure, you can put bidirectional trains on unidirectional infrastructure (all stations on the same side and end loops), but why would you, when you already have that infrastructure? To have a bidirectional train perform exactly the same as a unidirectional one, including using loops, is not very efficient. Why? Because one set of doors would never get used, and there would be less seats where you could have had more. That doesn't outweigh the benefit of bidirectional trains (being able to turn right away).
But a bidirectional tram would't perform the same as a unidirectional, just because there are loops doesn't mean they need to be used, crossovers can be installed near them. If all new rolling stock is bidirectional, then loops can be removed once unidirectional rolling stock is withdrawn. Big European operators could have done this when they introduced low floor trams, but they didn't.

The new Cincinnati line will be a loop, and so could surely use unidirectional rolling stock. Some big European unidirectional operators do actually have small bidirectional fleets which they use for line temporarily truncated for track work.


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Though, if a city decides to add a whole section of a line to a system, and wants to use bidirectional trains and a stub end, I say go for it, even if you would not use the doors on one side on the older part of the line.
I believe many of those European operators have added new sections lately, and maybe they could have used bidirectional trams, but they didn't.

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So what's the problem with that? Technically, backwards seats are safer (same goes for airplanes and buses). But it's a non-issue anyway.
Did you grow up travelling backwards or not? Fact is the those who grew up travelling forwards, and whose parents grew up travelling forwards too (assuming a family living the the same city for generations), and now faced with travelling backwards for the first time in history.

Is there really a manufacturer tooled for the same gauge used previously?

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Originally Posted by MrAronymous View Post
But the thing is, trolley poles are inferior. Why do you think all new rail systems have pantographs? It's for good reason. And you have to consider they might add light rail segments (means: reserved right of way and higher speeds) to the system, where trolley poles would not work out.
But they still remain common on trolleybuses, and are top speeds of trolleybuses any less than modern trams? I've heard of a tram in Lativa going over 100km/h with trolley poles without dewiring. The only real disadvantage, however minor, is the need for insulators between different live sections of overhead wiring even on the same substation.

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Originally Posted by MrAronymous View Post
Why would you purposely build something to older standards (not a lot of Penn gauge track left vs. standard gauge worldwide), if not for sentimental reasons? It's not only about the current streetcars, but maybe new light rail trains in the future, maintenance equipment , etc. that all will be easier to aqcuire.
Think of it this way, it's a bit like converting an existing system from a wider to a narrower gauge, only by a different method, though the end result is similar. Imagine what gauge would make sense if building to the historic gauge, as opposed to narrower, didn't add (substantially) to the cost of the rolling stock. I can, and if that were the case, I could see no reason to effectively change down.
The idea is that the pervious system should not have been removed in the first place and if it hand't these standards would still make sense today.

Last edited by Myrtonos; November 4th, 2015 at 04:22 PM. Reason: fixing a typo
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Old November 10th, 2015, 03:44 AM   #194
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Power switch goes on for streetcar Tuesday
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Cincinnati's streetcar is scheduled to start running in the streets with traffic on Tuesday morning.

The main testing phase is set to begin at 9 a.m., when the electric-powered streetcar will be driven along the Over-the-Rhine portion of the route. Testing will continue on Wednesday and Thursday, starting at 9 a.m. both days.

No road closures or police escorts are planned as part of this test, which is meant to simulate traffic conditions.
Source: http://www.cincinnati.com/story/news...sday/75472994/

And some pics from the dead pull on Sunday!



Photos from: http://www.urbanohio.com/forum2/inde...957.26915.html
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Old November 11th, 2015, 04:20 PM   #195
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Here's some video from the yesterday, during the very first powered test around the OTR loop:

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Old January 6th, 2016, 05:02 PM   #196
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Some recent Cincinnati Streetcar photos from Peter Ehrlich


CINCINNATI--1175 @ Carbarn
by Peter Ehrlich, on Flickr


CINCINNATI--1176 at Main/4th Street OB
by Peter Ehrlich, on Flickr


CINCINNATI--1175, 1176 at Race/Eton IB
by Peter Ehrlich, on Flickr


CINCINNATI--1176 on Henry Street. 2 of 3
by Peter Ehrlich, on Flickr
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Old January 22nd, 2016, 05:31 AM   #197
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Group envisions streetcar extension across the river
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A group called the Northern Kentucky Streetcar Committee is exploring ways to get a study funded to extend the route across the Taylor Southgate Bridge and into Newport, a leading member of the organization said Thursday.

The group eventually hopes an extension of the Cincinnati streetcar will wind its way through Newport and Covington, said Ian Budd, a community activist and CEO of ICB, an audiovisual equipment sales business.

The group has been exploring an extension for about 18 months and plans to go to Washington, D.C. soon to seek federal funding for an estimated $300,000 feasibility study, Budd added, saying that Newport City Commissioner Beth Fennell plans to go on the trip. If federal funding isn’t available, the group could seek private dollars.
Source: http://www.bizjournals.com/cincinnat...cross-the.html
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Old January 22nd, 2016, 05:55 AM   #198
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WOW! things have changed since the 2013 election!!!
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Old February 22nd, 2016, 06:10 PM   #199
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Public meetings will be held to discuss Oasis commuter rail



http://easterncorridor.org/projects/...ject-overview/
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Old March 24th, 2016, 10:45 PM   #200
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Seven events will cause the Cincinnati streetcar to close throughout the year.

"City Council passed an ordinance Wednesday calling for the streetcar to close for the Findlay Market Opening Day Parade, Flying Pig Marathon, Taste of Cincinnati, Oktoberfest, Cincinnati Heart Mini-marathon, Thanksgiving Day Race and Health Expo.

Streetcar supporters aren't happy about it, saying on social media this is another attempt by Mayor John Cranley to keep Downtown and Over-the-Rhine from reaching its full potential."

http://www.cincinnati.com/story/news...here/82171866/
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